From: SMS on
Bill Tuthill wrote:
> SMS <scharf.steven(a)geemail.com> wrote:
>>> I believe the principal effect of the new Eneloop and Hybrid batteries
>>> will be higher sales of digicams that accept standard AA batteries.
>>>
>> I doubt it, because the manufacturer always wants to make things smaller.
>
> Small cellphones are more popular than large, especially with women.
>
> But cameras are already small enough, and if anything the impetus is to
> make them bigger to fit a larger LCD screen.

No, they fit a larger LCD screen by getting rid of everything else on
the back, like the viewfinder. Even with a bigger screen they want to
make them thin.

The market is being segemented into ultra-compact point and shoots and
D-SLRs, with the middle getting sparser because high megapixel compact
cameras can't deliver good enough quality with their tiny sensors.
Something like the S5 can (and does) use AA batteries.

Few people would put up with six AA batteries on a D-SLR unless they
include something like the battery tray that's used in the vertical
grips. D-SLRs use a lot of power so going to four AA batteries won't
work, and even four AA batteries is a hassle.

We'll see what happens, but I very much doubt that the advent of
low-discharge NiMH batteries is going to cause camera makers to move
away from Li-Ion and Li-Po. The advantages over AA batteries are still
overwhelming, even with low-discharge AA batteries. Remember,
manufacturers are good at looking at the big picture, including issues
like warranty repair costs, where AA batteries have a big disadvantage.

Steve
"http://batterydata.com"
From: ASAAR on
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 20:14:48 -0700, SMS wrote:

> Few people would put up with six AA batteries on a D-SLR unless they
> include something like the battery tray that's used in the vertical
> grips. D-SLRs use a lot of power so going to four AA batteries won't
> work, and even four AA batteries is a hassle.

A hassle for you. There may have been a need for six AA batteries
in old, inefficient DSLRs, but modern ones can do quite nicely with
only four. That would be enough to last many photographers for many
weeks of shooting, if not months. There are DSLRs that use very
little power, and can squeeze several thousand shots out of a single
Li-Ion battery, so do you think people are naive enough to think
that they'd only get several hundreds of shots from AA batteries
with DSLRs that use optical viewfinders?

Your statement that "four AA batteries won't work" is flat out
wrong, as owners of Pentax's K100D can tell you. It's one of those
cameras that you may also be surprised to know doesn't include
rechargeable batteries or a charger in the box, only 4 AA alkalines.
It can also use a pair of CR-V3 batteries in a pinch. Think of
Pentax's savings due to warrantees that aren't needed. :)

Do you think that this is the only DSLR that uses four AA
batteries? Short answer. No. There are several others, and they
all have good battery life. I do hope that this bogus anti-AA
battery claim hasn't been posted on your website, since immodestly
say that it is :

> Earth's Independent Source for Unbiased Digital Camera Battery Information

and this bogus statement about DSLRs and AA batteries alone would
disqualify your boast from being true.


[From another message in this thread]
> Of course it often helps when you have someone on Usenet that
> provides you with tons of incorrect material to correct! Never let
> it be said that ASAAR doesn't serve a purpose!

Oh, I do. I do. But you have it backwards. It's your bloviating
that frequently needs to be corrected. The fact that you have to
resort to hiding behind a kill filter in order to be able to avoid
having to respond to messages such as this one that corrects your
biased nonsense further strengthens the contention that it's you,
not I, that posts "tons of incorrect material". You've rarely ever
tried to correct anything I've said, and when you have, you've
usually (if not always) been wrong.

From: Ron Hunter on
SMS wrote:
> Dave Cohen wrote:
>
>> So the first NiMH I bought, Quest low capacity (I think around
>> 1400mah) should have a very low self discharge, but they don't.
>
> Why do you think that?
>
> Batteries are made as cheaply as possible. The point is that the reasons
> for high self-discharge of Ni-Cad batteries and NiMH batteries have
> always been known, and the way to lower the self-discharge was been
> known for a long time prior to the eneloop and other low-discharge
> batteries appearing on the market.
>
> It's a trade-off to build a low self-discharge cell in terms of both
> manufacturing cost and capacity. Sanyo believed that users would pay a
> higher price and accept lower capacity, in exchange for lower
> self-discharge. If they can educate the general public on the benefits,
> then they may be right.
>
>> To answer Thomas, yes anything can be got on-line, problem is postage.
>> I can avoid that by exceeding the $25 for free postage from my
>> favorite Amazon. I thought I got the licensing info from the internet
>> but can't locate the post.
>
> Yes, Amazon tends to be the lowest price for most items, especially with
> their free shipping. Usually only Costco and Sam's Club beats Amazon.
> The Costco deal on eneloops is very good. I'm slowly replacing most of
> the batteries in devices at my house with eneloop. Wireless mice, remote
> controls, game controllers (those Wii controllers really eat batteries),
> etc.

I think they have a good idea. For most people, a battery with 2100mAh
that retains its charge for a month is much better than a 2700mAh
battery that loses 50% of its charge after a month of disuse. For those
who routinely use a set of batteries in a day's shooting, the higher
price, and lower capacity wouldn't be an advantage.
For my uses, the Eneloop batteries are a great value.
From: Ron Hunter on
SMS wrote:
> Bill Tuthill wrote:
>> SMS <scharf.steven(a)geemail.com> wrote:
>>>> I believe the principal effect of the new Eneloop and Hybrid batteries
>>>> will be higher sales of digicams that accept standard AA batteries.
>>>>
>>> I doubt it, because the manufacturer always wants to make things
>>> smaller.
>>
>> Small cellphones are more popular than large, especially with women.
>>
>> But cameras are already small enough, and if anything the impetus is to
>> make them bigger to fit a larger LCD screen.
>
> No, they fit a larger LCD screen by getting rid of everything else on
> the back, like the viewfinder. Even with a bigger screen they want to
> make them thin.
>
> The market is being segemented into ultra-compact point and shoots and
> D-SLRs, with the middle getting sparser because high megapixel compact
> cameras can't deliver good enough quality with their tiny sensors.
> Something like the S5 can (and does) use AA batteries.
>
> Few people would put up with six AA batteries on a D-SLR unless they
> include something like the battery tray that's used in the vertical
> grips. D-SLRs use a lot of power so going to four AA batteries won't
> work, and even four AA batteries is a hassle.
>
> We'll see what happens, but I very much doubt that the advent of
> low-discharge NiMH batteries is going to cause camera makers to move
> away from Li-Ion and Li-Po. The advantages over AA batteries are still
> overwhelming, even with low-discharge AA batteries. Remember,
> manufacturers are good at looking at the big picture, including issues
> like warranty repair costs, where AA batteries have a big disadvantage.
>
> Steve
> "http://batterydata.com"

The smaller the camera, the more advantage the Li-ion battery has, but
in most cases, there is still room for a couple of AA batteries. In
cases where space/weight are the primary considerations, Li-ion
batteries are the logical choice. When the device is a bit larger, and
the weight isn't critical, the current NiMH battery is likely as good,
and almost always cheaper.
From: SMS on
Ron Hunter wrote:

> I think they have a good idea. For most people, a battery with 2100mAh
> that retains its charge for a month is much better than a 2700mAh
> battery that loses 50% of its charge after a month of disuse. For those
> who routinely use a set of batteries in a day's shooting, the higher
> price, and lower capacity wouldn't be an advantage.
> For my uses, the Eneloop batteries are a great value.

I think the same applies to most battery users. We were going through a
lot of batteries in our house, and while I had many NiMH batteries they
were too inconvenient because most of the devices they were in were
either infrequently used, or were low current draw where the
self-discharge energy exceeded the actual used energy. Hopefully the
eneloop will pretty much eliminate the wasteful Alkaline habit.

The other advantage of eneloop, from a marketing perspective anyway, is
that they can be sold already charged.