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From: SMS on 17 Sep 2009 22:50
Bill Graham wrote:
> Just look at the crime rate in New York City, where handguns have been
> illegal all of my life.
"The mainstream, not just media but culture, doesn�t sufficiently take
stock of the fact that within our culture we have a subculture which is
literally a fifth column of insanity that is bred from birth, through
home school, Christian school, evangelical college, whatever to reject
facts as a matter of faith." Frank Schaeffer
From: David J. Littleboy on 17 Sep 2009 23:08
"SMS" <scharf.steven(a)geemail.com> wrote:
> Bill Graham wrote:
>> Just look at the crime rate in New York City, where handguns have been
>> illegal all of my life.
More inconvenient facts. We really have to stop this. Poor Bill is going to
have a heart attack from all that cognitive dissonance and find out how poor
his overpriced insurance really is.
David J. Littleboy
From: stephe_k on 17 Sep 2009 23:48
Bill Graham wrote:
> We have been over this ground too many times already. Let's just look at
> the present and near future.
Well you might need to look at what Obama was handed by GWB before you
try to blame him for where we are.
> How can any good come out of spending
> several trillion dollars right now?
Have you looked around the world? We are NOT the only Gov pumping money
into their economy trying to avoid a Depression. Which we have done BTW.
Have you bothered to look at your retirement fund in the last six months?
> You can't recover from a monetary
> loss by spending more money, whether you are an individual or a country.
Actually if we had continued to follow GWB example of doing absolutely
nothing, we WOULD be in a depression right now.
From: stephe_k on 17 Sep 2009 23:54
Bill Graham wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.steven(a)geemail.com> wrote in message
>> Bill Graham wrote:
>>> We have been over this ground too many times already. Let's just look
>>> at the present and near future. How can any good come out of spending
>>> several trillion dollars right now? You can't recover from a monetary
>>> loss by spending more money, whether you are an individual or a
>>> country. We are on a big path to certain doom.
>> Spending that money will indeed devalue our currency and lead to
>> inflation. Thanks to W, the U.S. standard of living will be lower for
>> decades or even a century.
>> However the alternative of letting the economy go from recession to
>> depression would have been much worse. You have to learn to look at
>> the big picture.
>> There is a big difference between the reckless deficit spending of
>> Reagan and W, and the current bailout of major financial institutions
>> and manufacturers. The former was to enrich the wealthy at the expense
>> of the lower and middle class. The latter is to prevent the whole
>> world from going into a depression caused by the former. As
>> distasteful as it may be to bail out GM, Chrysler, AIG, etc., the
>> alternative would have been much worse.
>> It will take many decades to undo the problems wrought by supply-side
>> economics, ignoring the threat of radical Islam, ignoring
>> environmental degradation, and alienating most of the industrialized
>> world in the process, but it isn't hopeless or certain doom.
> This is ridiculous. It wasn't "supply side economics" that got the banks
> lending money to people who didn't have any down payments and jobs to
> pay for their homes. It was the erroneous belief that real estate prices
> would rise forever, plus the lack of regulation that encouraged the
> banks to be so stupid. Neither Regan nor Bush, (nor Clinton) had
> anything to do with this.
But massive deficit spending did affect all of this. You can't spend
BILLIONS on a war and at the same time LOWER taxes. You blame the dem
for "Tax and spend" but ignore the effects of "Tax rebate but spend a
lot more". That is EXACTLY what Regan AND both Bush's did.
And where exactly do you think we borrowed this money to go to war while
lowering taxes came from?
From: stephe_k on 17 Sep 2009 23:58
Bill Graham wrote:
> "Walter Banks" <walter(a)bytecraft.com> wrote in message
>> SMS wrote:
>>> David Ruether wrote:
>>> > I think you don't understand the predominant beliefs of the US >
>>> > very well... I think few see the election of Democrats as
>>> specifically > to
>>> > "steal rich people's money so more can be given to (poor) me", as the
>>> > unbelievably odd (to some of us) "bill of goods" the Republicans
>>> have > sold
>>> > to so many for so long that "supporting the interests of the rich
>>> is > best for us
>>> > (the poor) because, well, someday we may also be rich - which is a
>>> > fantasy,
>>> > but one that is widely held by Americans, especially now with >
>>> > popular lotteries in existence. BTW, this nonsense predates the >
>>> > socialistic is bad" myth sold also by those on the Right, who fail
>>> to > mention
>>> > that much of what is taken for granted as basic services *is* >
>>> > Armed with these two myths, a disreputable bunch of rascals is
>>> often > able
>>> > to draw roughly 50% of the electorate's votes. Pushing these myths,
>>> > with
>>> > repeated lies and deceptions added, works for winning elections, >
>>> The other issue many people don't understand is how the salary
>>> structures have evolved in the U.S. in regards to gross pay and net pay.
>>> A position paying $100K where $30K is paid in a combination of all taxes
>>> is not going to be paying $100K if the tax burden falls to $10K. Even
>>> within the same corporation there are differentials based on cost of
>>> living of different areas of the country (and world), and these
>>> differentials are based on both expenses for taxes and the costs of
>>> goods and services.
>>> If, after the past eight years, anyone voted Republican with the idea
>>> that Republicans would protect their savings, investments, and job, then
>>> they haven't been paying attention. Yet Republicans can talk about tax
>>> cuts (unfunded tax cuts) and there are still some naive middle and lower
>>> class voters that think that they'll automatically be better off paying
>>> slightly lower taxes. These people are unable to look at the big picture
>>> of how government is funded and the effects of increasing deficits. It's
>>> the same people that whine about how we should have just let GM and
>>> Chrysler go into liquidation, without understanding that the cost of
>>> liquidation would be much higher.
>> For most of the last generation in the US fiscal reality has been almost
>> the opposite of the rhetoric. The Democrats by an large have balanced
>> budgets and some cases created government surpluses and invested in
>> economic growth. The Republicans have been deficient spending and
>> investing in special interests.
> Usually because the Republicans have had to handle the wars, (mostly
> because they have happened to be in office when we were attacked, or
> otherwise obligated to wage them)
The KEY thing to note is: IF the country is at war spending BILLIONS,
you don't give HUGE tax breaks to big business at the same time.