From: Bill Graham on
I loaned my neighbor a gun. I thought he would use it to defend himself
against intruders. Instead, he went out and shot a dozen people. Now, I am
worried about what I should do about it. So, I asked Chris H what he thinks
I should do. Chris says, "You loaned him the gun to begin with." So, I say,
"Yes, yes.....but now, what should I do? and, Chris says, "If you hadn't
loaned him your gun to begin with, you wouldn't have the problem you have
now." And, I say, "Even if that's true, I still would like to find a way to
solve the present situation. Do you have any suggestions?" And Chris says,
"You Americans always do the wrong things". So this is the logic of Chris H.
It solves nothing, and is of no use or help at all.....

From: Rol_Lei Nut on
Bill Graham wrote:
> I loaned my neighbor a gun. I thought he would use it to defend himself
> against intruders. Instead, he went out and shot a dozen people. Now, I
> am worried about what I should do about it. So, I asked Chris H what he
> thinks I should do. Chris says, "You loaned him the gun to begin with."
> So, I say, "Yes, yes.....but now, what should I do? and, Chris says, "If
> you hadn't loaned him your gun to begin with, you wouldn't have the
> problem you have now." And, I say, "Even if that's true, I still would
> like to find a way to solve the present situation. Do you have any
> suggestions?" And Chris says, "You Americans always do the wrong
> things". So this is the logic of Chris H. It solves nothing, and is of
> no use or help at all.....

But before you loaned that neighbour that gun, all your friends (and,
yes, they were real friends) from around the World told you that it was
dangerous and a bad idea to loan a gun to that neighbour, giving you
very good reasons not to.
You responded by calling them cowards, renaming food items and being
generally insulting and abnoxious.
It is little wonder that those friends are now thinking "I told you so"
and are totally convinced that it is *your* problem.
From: Savageduck on
On 2009-10-02 00:01:25 -0700, "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> said:

>
> "tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:ibeac5l86fie2mklttpn2q229vncahlrcv(a)4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 22:55:18 +0100, Chris H <chris(a)phaedsys.org> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <gNmdnZYj3NkWn1jXnZ2dnUVZ_h-dnZ2d(a)giganews.com>, Bill Graham
>>> <weg9(a)comcast.net> writes
>>>>
>>>> "Walter Banks" <walter(a)bytecraft.com> wrote in message news:4AC4F93B.AA
>>>> 6C9985(a)bytecraft.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Graham wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes. the problem is we are accustomed to more conventional wars
>>>>>> where armies
>>>>>> had a home country, and wore uniforms, and assembled together and took up
>>>>>> arms against other similar armies. In a terrorist action, or series of
>>>>>> terrorist actions such as we are now experiencing, few of the
>>>>>> conventional
>>>>>> rules apply. In some ways, it is similar to our civil war.....No
>>>>>> uniforms,
>>>>>> isolated bands of people shooting at other ununiformed isolated bands of
>>>>>> people......And, in the same way, it is hard to establish rules of
>>>>>> conduct
>>>>>> that are cut and dried.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually it goes right back to 19 April 1775 Americans won that one but
>>>>> 200 years later have not learned the lessons it taught. History
>>>>> before that brought
>>>>> the assassins, ninja and many other unconventional warriors.
>>>>>
>>>>> w.
>>>> .
>>>> So we need new rules of acceptable conduct.
>>> You got them in 2008
>>>
>>>> And my question is, are the UN rules, and the Geneva Convention rules,
>>>> applicable to fighting off these kinds of terrorist actions?
>>> Yes... They were for the last 40 years in Norther Ireland.
>>>
>>>> And, if not, then what are we to do before new rules are established,
>>>> and who will establish them?
>>>
>>> They have been well defined and used by many armies. It has just takne
>>> the US military a LONG time to realise it's mistakes.
>>>
>>>> Personally, I don't see any way out right now,
>>> Well the US has dug a bloody big hole for itself/
>>>
>>>> but for us to establish our own rules as we go.
>>> Then you LOOSE and loose big time. The rules are already there the US
>>> military has to adapt to them,
>>>
>>>
>>>> And this means attacking other rogue countries such as Iran and North
>>>> Korea as necessary to keep them from acquiring nuclear weapons and
>>>> selling/giving them to terrorists. If there is some other way to
>>>> prevent this, I am all ears.....
>>>
>>> The main rogue state as seen by most of the world is the USA.
>>
>> You finally got "rogue" right. Now work on the difference between
>> "lose" and "loose". I thought the UK was supposed to have a decent
>> education system.
>
> Their ability to teach history is also not without some problems......

How on Earth would you of all people recognise, know, or even care what
an educated knowlege of history is?
You have yet to provide evidence that you have anything more than a
vague grasp of what happened more than eight months ago.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

From: Chris H on
In message <IZidnej51u-xNFjXnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d(a)giganews.com>, Bill Graham
<weg9(a)comcast.net> writes
>
>"DRS" <drs(a)removethis.ihug.com.au> wrote in message news:QoOdnd_lNr4iAV
>jXnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d(a)westnet.com.au...
>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:KfmdnZFTRanwtVjXnZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d(a)giganews.com
>>> "Chris H" <chris(a)phaedsys.org> wrote in message
>>> news:O2ZlLbY0JSxKFAoG(a)phaedsys.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> And Saddam was the US's man for the first 20 years for the 30.
>>>>
>>>> And Al-qeada & Taliban were originally trained and funded by the USA
>>>> (to fight the legitimate government in Afghanestan)
>>>>
>>> It is impossible to carry on any sort of intelligent discussion with
>>> you, Chris, because you insist on using it to push your own
>>> propaganda line. (that everything the US has ever done was evil) Is
>>
>> In this case Chris H simply stated undisputed historical facts. The
>>US has a long and murky history of supporting despots and suppressing
>>democracies when it thought it was in its national interests.
>>
>>
>All of which, true or not, has nothing to do with what I was
>discussing. I would like to find some common ground in deciding what to
>do about our current dilemma. Regardless of where the fault lies in how
>we arrived here to begin with.

How we got to this point is VERY valid and also has a direct bearing on
how we can get out of it. We have to understand the dynamics of the
situation and it's history. That will give yo the motivations of the
players.

> Apparently, you guys just want us to lie down and die because of some
>perceived mistake you think we made in the past.

Not at all. Because of some very real mistakes made by the US (and the
US was told at the time they were mistakes) we have arrived at this
situation. This means not all options are open on the way to get out.

> Well, I doubt if you are going to get your wish. So, why don't you
>address the current situation, and work to find a solution, instead of
>finding someone to blame for it?

I am addressing the current situation. Those who forget history are
doomed to repeat it.

The facts are NONE of this is old history. In Afghanistan 50 years is
the blink of an eye. SO the last 50 years is "current" many Afghans are
speaking of the Americans and Russians in the same sentence because to
the Afghans the Russians invading their country was "yesterday" and the
Americans "today". Many Afghans can see no difference between the
Americans and the Russians. (Other than the Americans have been killing
more civilians)

SO go get out of this mess the US has got itself into you need to look
at the last 100 years in general and the last 40 in particular. You
also need to understand it in the context of the region from Syria to
China. What the US does in Israel is an important factor as much as
bombing a wedding party in the next village.

The first thing the US has to wake up to is it is NOT seen as the Good
Guy by anyone.

The second is the Afghans were civilised at least a millennium before
the USA was created (as was Persia).

Third
What the US calls "freedom and democracy" is as alien to the Afghans as
Sharia law is to New York. New York wants Sharia law about as much as
the Afghans want a US style democracy.

Forth
The most important day to day thing is the US forces are an open battle
field 20th century army. They have no idea how to fight a Police action
in a civilian setting. They can not win using current tactics. Michael
Jackson was commenting on this recently

The US military needs a major rethink. They got new counter insurgency
manuals in 2008 (based on the British ones) but it is going to take some
years to turn the super tanker that is the US military. Probably the
better part of a decade. However estimates are it will take about 20
years to get out of Afghanistan.





--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/



From: Chris H on
In message <tIKdnXEoTMtbNljXnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d(a)giganews.com>, Bill Graham
<weg9(a)comcast.net> writes
>I loaned my neighbor a gun. I thought he would use it to defend himself
>against intruders. Instead, he went out and shot a dozen people. Now, I
>am worried about what I should do about it. So, I asked Chris H what he
>thinks I should do. Chris says, "You loaned him the gun to begin with."

No I say you gave a known psychopath a gun and trained him and him
friends to use it against the gang down the road. Despite being told
before you started that you were training an unstable psychopath who
would use the gun and training on friends and bad guys alike.

>So, I say, "Yes, yes.....but now, what should I do? and, Chris says,
>"If you hadn't loaned him your gun to begin with, you wouldn't have the
>problem you have now." And, I say, "Even if that's true, I still would
>like to find a way to solve the present situation.
>Do you have any suggestions?"


OK so looking at history we know several things

1 you didn't listen to advice
2 you took a very short term view
3 You ignored the history of the area
4 you ignored the medical records of the psychopaths
5 You have pissed off the whole neighbourhood by training and arming the
known psychopaths to take out the gang in the next street
6 The known psychopaths took out the gang in the next street but also
attack the good people in this street
7 Now trying to stop the known psychopaths you have killed half the good
people in the street.

Now you now want a "quick fix" shot term answer whilst not listening to
what you are told (see points 1,2,3 and 4).

Those who do not listen to history are doomed to repeat it.

>And Chris says, "You Americans always do the wrong things". So this is
>the logic of Chris H. It solves nothing, and is of no use or help at
>all.....

See points 1,2,3,4

Until you understand how you got here you can't get out of it.

The major problem is the US perception of the situation and the problem.

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/