From: Neil Harrington on

"Ray Fischer" <rfischer(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4aab189d$0$1622$742ec2ed(a)news.sonic.net...
> Neil Harrington <not(a)home.today> wrote:
>>"DRS" <drs(a)removethis.ihug.com.au> wrote in message
>>> Obama was not lying. He said, "There are also those who claim that our
>>> reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false -- the
>>> reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."
>>> That is true and Wilson was wrong.
>>
>>Maybe you draw some line that's so fine I can't see it, between "lying"
>>and
>>"misrepresenting."
>
> Wilson lied. Obama did not

Obama lied, again and again and again. I have just posted a lengthy IBD
editorial on this.

Wilson told the truth: Obama is a liar.

>
>>The bill (in all its various forms so far) does not give
>>coverage to illegal aliens.
>
> Q.E.D. And note also that the Bill isn't Obama's. It's a House bill.

There isn't *a* House bill. There are bills revised over and over again,
someone mentioned five versions, maybe more by this time. Obama seems to
regard any of them his own, and has been demanding since July that it be
passed immediately. Obama himself evidently does not know what's in it, and
at 1,018 pages who can be surprised? That's about as many pages as "War and
Peace," and almost certainly a lot harder to understand.

>
>>coverage to illegal aliens. But it ALSO does not provide any means of
>>discovering which ones are illegals, and in fact hospitals etc. are
>>generally prevented by law from even ASKING would-be patients if they are
>>illegals, let alone requiring any sort of ID showing that they're citizens
>>or at least here legally.
>
> So Obama was, in fact, telling the truth. Your objection is that
> there isn't a national id card to determine if people are legal
> residents.

My objection is that he lied. Throughout his entire speech, not just the
part that Wilson called him on. He knows perfectly well that his real goals
are (a) a complete government takeover of the health care industry, and (b)
payback to the union bosses who spent millions helping to get him elected.
They bought and paid for him; now they want him to come across. He's trying
hard to do that, since he wants their support in 2012 as well.


From: Ray Fischer on
Neil Harrington <secret(a)illumnati.net> wrote:
>"Ray Fischer" <rfischer(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
>> Neil Harrington <not(a)home.today> wrote:
>>>"DRS" <drs(a)removethis.ihug.com.au> wrote in message

>>>> Obama was not lying. He said, "There are also those who claim that our
>>>> reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false -- the
>>>> reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."
>>>> That is true and Wilson was wrong.
>>>
>>>Maybe you draw some line that's so fine I can't see it, between "lying"
>>>and
>>>"misrepresenting."
>>
>> Wilson lied. Obama did not
>
>Obama lied,

He did not, bigot.

> I have just posted a lengthy IBD
>editorial on this.

Which shows that YOU are the liar.

>>>The bill (in all its various forms so far) does not give
>>>coverage to illegal aliens.
>>
>> Q.E.D. And note also that the Bill isn't Obama's. It's a House bill.
>
>There isn't *a* House bill. There are bills revised over and over again,

Now you're squirming, rightard, and trying to change the subject.

>>>coverage to illegal aliens. But it ALSO does not provide any means of
>>>discovering which ones are illegals, and in fact hospitals etc. are
>>>generally prevented by law from even ASKING would-be patients if they are
>>>illegals, let alone requiring any sort of ID showing that they're citizens
>>>or at least here legally.
>>
>> So Obama was, in fact, telling the truth. Your objection is that
>> there isn't a national id card to determine if people are legal
>> residents.
>
>My objection is that he lied.

He didn't, bigot. You are.

> Throughout his entire speech, not just the
>part that Wilson called him on. He knows perfectly well that his real goals

Your paranoia doesn't make Obama a liar. It just makes you a crazy bigot.

--
Ray Fischer
rfischer(a)sonic.net

From: Walter Banks on


Bill Graham wrote:

> Yes. Health care, like everything else, costs money and has a cost/benefit
> curve that goes along with it.....How many heart transplants do they give to
> 80 year olds in one of the socialized medicine countries, like Norway or
> Sweden?

Probably the number are similar to the US. In Ontario the current
trend is to be more aggressive earlier in heart disease to keep
the existing pump working rather than replacing it later.

In the US heath care debate cost/benefit is quickly switched
to rationing and in most other countries with national heath
care it is a debate about at what point in the treatment of a
condition is it effective to be aggressive. It is one of the
mindsets that makes the US heath providers very good at care
for very serious conditions.

The other extreme is Cuba who have similar life expectancies
to the US who are very aggressive at treating conditions early.
They get similar outcomes compared to the US for about 5% of
the costs. Once the cost/benefit gets away from the rationing
subset it is a good thing. I was very surprised a few months ago
when cost/benefit came up so negatively in the US health care
debate, I had previously never really thought about rationing as
part of the same argument.

w..
From: Walter Banks on


Bill Graham wrote:

> In my world, yes, yes, yes. Everyone (all 300 million of us citizens) should
> have a government ID card, and/or a chip implanted in us that identifies us
> as US citizens in good standing, and if we are sick, then the chip should
> get us the treatment we need. Today's technology is more than adequate to
> accomplish this.

Well put
From: Walter Banks on

Bill Graham wrote:

> I drink a lot more prune juice than

Bill, you are just a regular fellow . . . :)