From: tony cooper on
On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 00:46:03 -0400, "Neil Harrington"
<secret(a)illumnati.net> wrote:

>
>"tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:q64pc5t7s86hgmsd2dctahb8ghgpi7vl72(a)4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 13:14:07 +0100, Chris H <chris(a)phaedsys.org> wrote:
>>
>
>
>>>
>>>I do understand but having seem FOX news and many others the same
>>>pictures with slightly different words can portray a very different
>>>scene.
>>>
>>>I recall during the floods in New Orleans there was a comment that there
>>>were gangs of black criminals looting and white vigilantes trying to
>>>keep the peace and get supplies for people.
>>
>> I don't believe this either. The meaning of the word "vigilantes"
>> would be understood by any professional journalist, and not used to
>> describe "keeping the peace". A description using "vigilantes" would
>> be as negative as a description using "looters".
>
>Not necessarily. "Vigilantes" implies a group of citizens that "take the law
>into their own hands," to use the common phrase. Sometimes that is the
>necessary and proper thing to do.

>> The word "vigilantes" does not mean upholding the law. Vigilantes
>> operate outside of the law and contrary to the law. Any use of
>> "vigilante" has negative meaning and negative connotation.
>
>It has that meaning and connotation for you, because of the way it is
>generally used and because you presumably don't know how the term
>originated.. But when there is no law organization doing the job the law is
>supposed to do, and peaceful, honest citizens are being attacked, robbed and
>worse -- as obviously was the case in New Orleans -- then the vigilante in
>one form or another becomes necessary. What else can people do to protect
>themselves? Remember that in New Orleans during Katrina, many of the police
>fled the city (two of them stole a police cruiser and were arrested in
>Texas) and the mayor fled also. Whatever police remained seem to have been
>absolutely useless.

Chris's comment was that Fox News reported that there were black
looters and white vigilantes keeping the peace. I flat-out don't
believe this. I think Chris is making up an example out of whole
cloth.

It's not that I don't believe that some citizens of New Orleans were
forced to act in their own defense absent authorized police presence.
What I don't believe is Chris's claim that Fox News reporting
portrayed black looters as the bad guys and white vigilantes as the
good guys. No journalist would use "vigilantes" with a positive
connotation. The origin of the word is irrelevant; the current
connotation of the word is all that is relevant when it comes to news
reporting.

George Will or William Safire (may he R.I.P) may do a column exploring
English usage and the origin of words and phrases, but news
journalists deal with present connotation. They are not, for example,
going to use the perfectly legitimate word "niggardly" in a news piece
after the 1999 Washington DC flap.

My criticism of Chris is that he blows his credibility when he
fabricates examples to make his point.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
From: DRS on
"tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:kbrrc5puajd8uulesr3j6n8fn9im3sehbl(a)4ax.com
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 18:08:09 +1100, "DRS" <drs(a)removethis.ihug.com.au>
> wrote:

[...]

>> Now, I don't want to get buried in the details of this particular
>> argument, but I do want to suggest some of you might want to think
>> about short-circuiting these endless he-said/she-said subthreads by
>> doing some homework, especially on things that are easily checked.
>> Who knows, people might end up learning something.
>
> I would like to suggest that you might want to think about reading the
> posts I've made and addressing what I've said and not what you seem to
> think I've said.
>
> I've made no comments about Fox's handing of the Katrina aftermath
> conditions. I haven't maintained that Fox did or did not demonize the
> black population. I haven't maintained that any reporting agency
> presented biased or unbiased stories. I haven't maintained that Fox
> did or did not play on racial stereotyping. I haven't commented on
> any of that.

True.

> What I objected to was Chris's comment "I recall during the floods in
> New Orleans there was a comment that there were gangs of black
> criminals looting and white vigilantes trying to keep the peace and
> get supplies for people." He used this as a example of words used on
> Fox programming to portray a "different scene".

True.

> I don't believe he heard that. I believe that he made it up.

This is where people (I'm not picking on you particularly) slip into the
endless he said/she said subthreads that go nowhere. What I showed was a
context of natural disaster, media demonisation of the black population and
largely under-reported white vigilantiism in which it is easy for memory to
make errors or conflate elements of different stories. The way out of these
endlessly repetitive threads that establish nothing is to do some homework.

> I do not believe that any journalist on any station or with any news
> medium would use "vigilante" as a positive comparison to the negative
> "looters".

Had you checked the first link I gave you'd have found anecdotal evidence in
the first paragraph to support your claim:

"Thousands of National Guardsmen and women armed with food, water and
weapons streamed into the hurricane-ravaged New Orleans on Friday to bring
relief to the suffering and take back the streets from the looters and armed
vigilantes."

> Making claims that he can't support by providing a cite is bad, but
> making up quotes to support a claim is worse.

Maybe he made it up, maybe he made an error, maybe it's true and it's on
YouTube. I don't know. But for heaven's sake, let's all please move on.
Somewhere. Anywhere.



From: Neil Harrington on

"tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:6buqc5tlh28uvk7mg93l5d8kfe6o5vvioc(a)4ax.com...
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 00:46:03 -0400, "Neil Harrington"
> <secret(a)illumnati.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>news:q64pc5t7s86hgmsd2dctahb8ghgpi7vl72(a)4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 13:14:07 +0100, Chris H <chris(a)phaedsys.org> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>I do understand but having seem FOX news and many others the same
>>>>pictures with slightly different words can portray a very different
>>>>scene.
>>>>
>>>>I recall during the floods in New Orleans there was a comment that there
>>>>were gangs of black criminals looting and white vigilantes trying to
>>>>keep the peace and get supplies for people.
>>>
>>> I don't believe this either. The meaning of the word "vigilantes"
>>> would be understood by any professional journalist, and not used to
>>> describe "keeping the peace". A description using "vigilantes" would
>>> be as negative as a description using "looters".
>>
>>Not necessarily. "Vigilantes" implies a group of citizens that "take the
>>law
>>into their own hands," to use the common phrase. Sometimes that is the
>>necessary and proper thing to do.
>
>>> The word "vigilantes" does not mean upholding the law. Vigilantes
>>> operate outside of the law and contrary to the law. Any use of
>>> "vigilante" has negative meaning and negative connotation.
>>
>>It has that meaning and connotation for you, because of the way it is
>>generally used and because you presumably don't know how the term
>>originated.. But when there is no law organization doing the job the law
>>is
>>supposed to do, and peaceful, honest citizens are being attacked, robbed
>>and
>>worse -- as obviously was the case in New Orleans -- then the vigilante in
>>one form or another becomes necessary. What else can people do to protect
>>themselves? Remember that in New Orleans during Katrina, many of the
>>police
>>fled the city (two of them stole a police cruiser and were arrested in
>>Texas) and the mayor fled also. Whatever police remained seem to have been
>>absolutely useless.
>
> Chris's comment was that Fox News reported that there were black
> looters and white vigilantes keeping the peace. I flat-out don't
> believe this. I think Chris is making up an example out of whole
> cloth.
>
> It's not that I don't believe that some citizens of New Orleans were
> forced to act in their own defense absent authorized police presence.
> What I don't believe is Chris's claim that Fox News reporting
> portrayed black looters as the bad guys and white vigilantes as the
> good guys. No journalist would use "vigilantes" with a positive
> connotation. The origin of the word is irrelevant; the current
> connotation of the word is all that is relevant when it comes to news
> reporting.

I agree, I cannot imagine reporters using the word "vigilantes" in anything
but a negative way.

>
> George Will or William Safire (may he R.I.P) may do a column exploring
> English usage and the origin of words and phrases, but news
> journalists deal with present connotation. They are not, for example,
> going to use the perfectly legitimate word "niggardly" in a news piece
> after the 1999 Washington DC flap.

<guffaw!>

I remember that well, though I didn't recall what the city was. You're
right, of course.


From: Stuffed Crust on
In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems tony cooper <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
> It's not that I don't believe that some citizens of New Orleans were
> forced to act in their own defense absent authorized police presence.
> What I don't believe is Chris's claim that Fox News reporting
> portrayed black looters as the bad guys and white vigilantes as the
> good guys. No journalist would use "vigilantes" with a positive

I know it's not FN, but the AP was pretty embarassed when a photo of
blacks "looting" groceries was constasted with another photo
of whites "scavanging".

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Controversy_over_New_Orleans_photos_captions

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Melbourne, FL ^^ (mail/jabber/gtalk) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
From: tony cooper on
On 08 Oct 2009 17:44:39 GMT, Stuffed Crust <pizza(a)spam.shaftnet.org>
wrote:

>In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems tony cooper <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
>> It's not that I don't believe that some citizens of New Orleans were
>> forced to act in their own defense absent authorized police presence.
>> What I don't believe is Chris's claim that Fox News reporting
>> portrayed black looters as the bad guys and white vigilantes as the
>> good guys. No journalist would use "vigilantes" with a positive
>
>I know it's not FN, but the AP was pretty embarassed when a photo of
>blacks "looting" groceries was constasted with another photo
>of whites "scavanging".
>
>http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Controversy_over_New_Orleans_photos_captions
>
That would have been embarrassing to the AP. What many people do not
realize is that photo captions, headlines, and sub-heads are not
written by the reporter(s) who came up with the story or the
photographer who took the picture. Many reporters and photographers
have been embarrassed by similar gaffes done by sub-editors who scan
the article.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida