From: Bill Graham on

"Savageduck" <savageduck@{REMOVESPAM}> wrote in message
> On 2009-09-13 08:52:24 -0700, C J Campbell
> <christophercampbellremovethis(a)> said:
>> On 2009-09-11 17:07:12 -0700, John A. <john(a)nowhere.invalid> said:
>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:54:37 -0700, "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)>
>>> wrote:
>>>> "wrbrown13" <wrbrown3(a)> wrote in message
>>>> news:xz99h2s243hc$.9skloajqavx8.dlg(a)
>>>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:36:20 -0700, Bill Graham wrote:
>>>>>> "Bob G" <mrbobjames(a)> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:adbcdb79-6c7f-4021-8fc0-3adf608d7083(a)
>>>>>>> Republicans would rather get jerked around by the corporations than
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> the government. Wait until you get a horrible diseaase and your
>>>>>>> health
>>>>>>> insurance company drops you like a hot potato.
>>>>>>> The fact is that this nation is now an oligarchy (and has been for
>>>>>>> some time) and not a democracy.
>>>>>>> How does that go, from the corporations, by the corporations, and
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> the corporations?
>>>>>> That is what litigation is supposed to correct.....You still have the
>>>>>> right
>>>>>> to sue. But I never said that government couldn't regulate. Your
>>>>>> health
>>>>>> insurance policy should list the stuff it doesn't cover, in large ten
>>>>>> point
>>>>>> type.......I would vote for a law like that.
>>>>> Now there's a thought. Sue a large corporation who has any number of
>>>>> lawyers on their staff and can drag litigation out intil you don't
>>>>> have a
>>>>> penny to your name. Great in theory, but a joke in reality.
>>>> They usually settle out of court. Why? Because juries are very
>>>> sympathetic
>>>> to the little guy, and have been known to award many millions of the
>>>> big
>>>> companies money to him.
>>> Actually, juries have very good "bullshit detectors" by and large, and
>>> it's very rare for a frivolous or fraudulent malpractice suit to
>>> succeed. Any little guy vs big guy sympathies are balanced by the
>>> pleasure to be had in sending a con packing. Seriously, the whole idea
>>> that's been going around of capping awards in these cases serves no
>>> one near as well as the *real* incompetent and/or reckless medical
>>> professionals who will save money but who should be out of the
>>> business entirely. Hey, if folks are hell-bent on capping rightfully
>>> won awards, I guess they will, but let's have some professional
>>> repercussions to weed out the real bad doctors, nurses, etc. and keep
>>> them out.
>> The trouble is that most cases never go to trial. The insurance companies
>> nearly always settle for something, because the cost of defending is
>> greater than the cost of paying something on even the most frivolous
>> claim. That raises insurance rates for everyone, plus it encourages
>> medical professionals to practice exceedingly defensive medicine.
> That is true in many areas.
> In Law enforcement for example a cost analysis is always conducted in the
> case of Citizen Complaints headed to Court, and settlements are offered.
> Mainly due to Court costs exceding any value to succesful defense.
> I know of many peace officers accused of various transgressions, false or
> otherwise, in Citizen Complaints, who protested they were unable to clear
> their reputation in Court due to a settlement, even when there is clear
> evidence they were falsely accused, and they have been cleared via
> internal investigation.
Yeah.... The Portland police gunned a guy down last year who was stark
naked. and they were "cleared via internal investigation" That government
organization is as crooked as our congressmen......

From: Bill Graham on

"Rol_Lei Nut" <Speleo_Karstlenscap(a)> wrote in message
> David Ruether wrote:
>> "Savageduck" <savageduck@{REMOVESPAM}> wrote in message
>> news:2009091309555850878-savageduck(a)REMOVESPAMmecom...
>>> On 2009-09-13 03:11:49 -0700, Chris H <chris(a)> said:
>>>> What has some local inter-party politics of a foreign country got to do
>>>> with photography?
>>> Well they got some pretty candid shots of all the participants, and the
>>> distribution was widespread. Without cameras and a few different types
>>> of photography, how would we have known?
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>> Savageduck
>> 8^)
>> But, for those who are not in the US and are understandably bored
>> with what appears to be only a local-to-the-US issue (especially since
>> many of you know from experience with it that your single-payer
>> "socialist" solution to providing health care does in fact work very
>> well, and you may wonder why we don't just look at it from the point
>> of view of your experience), there is more involved - and I fear, much
>> as I generally abhor "doom-and-gloom" prognostications and conspiracy
>> theories, things are afoot here that are scary. From a distrust of
>> government,
>> to the President, and courts, with a growing disrespect for the basic
>> social
>> institutions, a growing "know-nothing" movements (like the
>> "Tea-Baggers"),
>> all fed by some extremist media "professionals" that have gutted the
>> meaning of news as accurate reporting of facts and events on some
>> networks and major news programs and web sites, plus some "shady"
>> Christian organizations that have included a large number of publicly
>> discredited members who are prominent in government and religion, to
>> the rise of self-styled (and well-armed) militias which claim that the
>> government is oppressive and it is their duty to fight it. And then there
>> are the politicians, including governors, who speak of state secessions -
>> and, beneath all this junk appears to be a hatred for President Obama,
>> which can only be racism at its worst (much as we had hoped to be
>> well beyond that absurdity), as evidenced by the "birthers" who deny
>> Obama's citizenship in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary,
>> and the constant "demonizing" of someone who is so very far from being
>> evil as to be almost the epitome of honor, honesty, intelligence, and
>> goodwill.
>> This does appear to be a time of "non-thinking" and ignorance among a
>> truly scary proportion of our population - with a mythological nostalgic
>> overlay of "wishing for things as they were". Hmmm... I guess that would
>> be, to be charitable, when people were "friendlier", had less crime, and
>> felt secure in leaving their houses and cars unlocked. Sounds nice (and
>> every house had a white picket fence around it, and a new Ford or
>> Chevrolet in the driveway, and there were none of them thar "illegals"
>> around to weigh down the economy [NOT!..;-]) - but this was a time
>> when the "Nig-graz" were expected to "keep their place" out of sight and
>> to serve in menial jobs at low wages, be humiliated by being required to
>> use separate facilities of all kinds, and to not expect to get a decent
>> public
>> education. Great, huh? Then along comes an "uppity" (a VERY charged
>> word here in race relations) Black person of great abilities who is
>> overwhelmingly voted into the Presidency - and some still cannot accept
>> this. But, rather than being honest about it (they would look as stupid
>> as
>> they are...), they try their best to undermine a potentially great
>> President
>> by any method, fair or foul. So, having saved the economy from disaster,
>> people complain about the "bank bailout" and "auto bailouts". Having had
>> the temerity to FINALLY attack our extreme deficit resulting from health
>> care costs, people blindly holler about "socialists" (or Nazis - a
>> complete
>> absurdity). And it will go on and on, with the deceptions,
>> prevarications,
>> and downright lies about policies and a president that have some chance
>> of freeing us from our current messes, whether in war, international
>> relations, health care, the economy (and deficit), etc., mostly dumped on
>> us by our previous president. I guess the Right figures that "winning" is
>> more important than the welfare of the country and its citizens...

Ah yes....Racism. 95% of the people of color in this country voted for Barak
Obama. That means Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, and conservatives, as
long as they were not Caucasians....and very nearly half of the Caucasians
also voted for him. Now, lets suppose that 95% of the Caucasians had voted
for John McCain (presumably, because he was white) McCain would have won
every state except Hawaii by a landslide, and the US would have been laughed
at as being the most racist country in the world. So where is the racism?
Obama won handily......

From: Bill Graham on

"Twibil" <nowayjose6(a)> wrote in message
On Sep 13, 2:51 pm, "Bill Graham" <w...(a)> wrote:
> Our schools have become socialist training grounds..

Uh....sure. For a given value of "socialist". In this case meaning
"not socialist".

> ...9 out of 10 university instructors are liberals.

As are most well educated people. (Does this come as a shock? It's
been the case for as long as anyone's bothered to keep track, you

Do you recommend we outlaw education entirely, or perhaps only allow
teachers and lessons that have been pre-approved by Sarah Palin and
Sean Hannity?

> Have you read any textbooks recently?

Yes. I retired after teaching for 12 years at the Universty of
California, and instructors frquently *do* read textbooks.

> They might as well have been written by card carrying communists.

Erm, sure, for a given value of "communist". In this case meaning "not
communist". (With a few college-level exceptions where the authors
make no secret of their political orientation.)

> They are winning the battle simply by being better organized.

Ever known any real honest-to-goodness communists personally, Bunky?
I have, and they're among the least practical, worst orgainized, and
utterly ineffective people on the planet. That's why most -to bend the
term- "true communist" states fell apart some twenty years ago beneath
their own weight -or kept the "communist" title while embracing
capitalism with both arms.

Here's a free hint: everything you dislike isn't automatically
"socialist" or "communist". Those words have real definitions, and
using them the same way some folks yell "NAZI!" at anyone they dislike
only devalues the words and convinces everyone who has even a marginal
grip on reality that you don't.

Its a category I put those into who are afraid to make any decisions for
themselves. They want the government to do it for them, so they can't be
accused of screwing up if things don't turn out so well. They are afraid to
choose their own educations, get their own jobs, and make their own
investment decisions for their own retirement. It's so easy to just let the,
"wise old government " do it all for them. Then, if things don't go so well,
their hands are clean.
And why don't I want to go along with this? - It's called slavery, baby. I
want to be free. Even if it means I stand a chance of screwing up.

From: Bill Graham on

"D. Peter Maus" <DPeterMaus(a)> wrote in message
> On 9/13/09 16:34 , Bill Graham wrote:
>> "D. Peter Maus" <DPeterMaus(a)> wrote in message
>> news:h8eg31$9qs$1(a)
>>> On 9/11/09 16:34 , Bill Graham wrote:
>>>> Everyone (all 300 million of us citizens)
>>>> should have a government ID card, and/or a chip implanted in us that
>>>> identifies us as US citizens in good standing, and if we are sick, then
>>>> the chip should get us the treatment we need. Today's technology is
>>>> more
>>>> than adequate to accomplish this.
>>> Be careful what you wish for.
>> Well, we are fast approaching the alternative, which is to treat
>> everyone as citizens whether they pay any taxes or are illegal aliens or
>> not. If I am going to pay taxes, then I would like to be identified as
>> a, "taxpayer" in good standing, and that means a valid ID that goes with
>> me wherever I am. It will be my license to vote, and get medical care. I
>> am very tired of paying for other peoples way.
> My point was not that illegal aliens are to be separated from the rights
> and privileges of citizens. In that we're in agreement. For precisely the
> reasons you state.
> My point was that 'chipping' brings with it the worst kind of potential
> for abuse.

Perhaps so. Fingerprint reading, Eye markings. even instant DNA analysis,
(which I believe is in the near future). I don't really care how they do it.
My point is that if they can't control our borders, then they will have to
identify us individually....

From: Ray Fischer on
Bill Graham <weg9(a)> wrote:
>"Allen" <allent(a)> wrote in message
>> David Ruether wrote:
>>> "Walter Banks" <walter(a)> wrote in message
>>> news:4AABFA0C.7A417C71(a)
>>>> Bill Graham wrote:
>>>>> In my world, yes, yes, yes. Everyone (all 300 million of us citizens)
>>>>> should
>>>>> have a government ID card, and/or a chip implanted in us that
>>>>> identifies us
>>>>> as US citizens in good standing, and if we are sick, then the chip
>>>>> should
>>>>> get us the treatment we need. Today's technology is more than adequate
>>>>> to
>>>>> accomplish this.
>>>> Well put
>>> I trust you two are joking... Talk about ultimate "socialism", ultimate
>>> government control over its citizenry, and just plain obvious potential
>>> for the development of ultimate nightmare despotism... THINK!!!
>>> (Sheesh!)
>>> --DR
>> They can't think, David. I'm sure that they were among the idiots who
>> didn't think the children of this country should listen to a talk about
>> the value of education. The leaders of their group realize that the only
>> way that group can survive is with an uneducated and uninformed majority.
>> Allen
>Well, if the government would stop stealing my money and giving it away to
>anyone who happens to wander across our borders,

The usual rightard bigotry and lies.

It's all they have.

Ray Fischer