From: Chris H on
In message <2009111608013713512-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom>, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> writes
>On 2009-11-16 07:31:45 -0800, Chris H <chris(a)phaedsys.org> said:
>
>> In message <2009111606474899097-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom>, Savageduck
>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> writes
>>> On 2009-11-16 06:07:32 -0800, Chris H <chris(a)phaedsys.org> said:
>>>
>>>> In message <2009111605502095335-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>>>Savageduck
>>>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> writes
>>>>> On 2009-11-16 01:00:35 -0800, Eric Stevens <eric.stevens(a)sum.co.nz> said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:25:50 -0800, "Bill Graham"
>>>>>> <weg9(a)comcast.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Neil Harrington" <secret(a)illumnati.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:DOydnQgIzaeZCmLXnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>>> "Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens(a)sum.co.nz> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:t28uf5hjm52ous6p5d4sren7rv8k86agfo(a)4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:03:47 -0500, "Neil Harrington"
>>>>>>>>> <secret(a)illumnati.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Blame Napoleon. He laid down the law for France and at the
>>>>>>>>> beginning
>>>>>>>>> of the 20th century France dominated the automobile industry.
>>>>>>>> But sans Napoleon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hummmm.....I wonder if France had stagecoaches before their
>>>>>>> automobiles, and
>>>>>>> if so, were they operated from the left or right sides?
>>>>>> Where ever they were operated from, ever since Napoleon they drove
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the right.
>>>>> Cite. You authority is in as much doubt as ours.
>>>> I would be interested too... though it sounds plausible. Napoleon
>>>> was
>>>> into Standards and making France the Centre Of The World.
>>> Napoleon might have set the French standard just to be different to
>>>the
>>> English.
>> Shirley not? :-)
>
>Don't call me Shirley!
>
>> Mind you The US did it just to be different to Europe. It was all
>> political
>
>If that were true we would all be riding pogo sticks, and who knows we
>might be soon enough.

It was true. When the US got going it used different standards to help
the indigenous industry and confuse importers as the US had zero
industry when it started.


--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/



From: J�rgen Exner on
"Neil Harrington" <secret(a)illumnati.net> wrote:
>The bothersome one is Fahrenheit to Centigrade (or Celsius as they've
>decided to call it for some silly reason),

Actually it's quite obvious: those are not 1/100th of a degree (as the
prefix centi implies) but honest to god, true, full degrees.

jue
From: J. Clarke on
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios wrote:
> ? "Chris H" <chris(a)phaedsys.org> ?????? ??? ??????
> news:gX++zyMutWALFAiV(a)phaedsys.demon.co.uk...
>> In message <gZGdnYq9CITE_5zWnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d(a)giganews.com>, Neil
>> Harrington <secret(a)illumnati.net> writes
>>>
>>> "Chris H" <chris(a)phaedsys.org> wrote in message
>>> news:UWxjDpHSvVALFAUi(a)phaedsys.demon.co.uk...
>>>> In message <c-CdnXIhyIZ0ypzWnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d(a)giganews.com>, Neil
>>>> Harrington <secret(a)illumnati.net> writes
>>>>>
>>>>> "Chris H" <chris(a)phaedsys.org> wrote in message
>>>>> news:vhLdubL4YBALFAxO(a)phaedsys.demon.co.uk...
>>>>>> In message <1e00g51800npsuco24380ml1u76jrfa7lf(a)4ax.com>, tony
>>>>>> cooper <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> writes
>>>>>>> On 15 Nov 2009 06:48:13 GMT, rfischer(a)sonic.net (Ray Fischer)
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> tony cooper <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:03:59 -0000, "R. Mark Clayton"
>>>>>>>>> <nospamclayton(a)btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> US units are a shambolic mess, inconsistent with each other
>>>>>>>>>> and almost
>>>>>>>>>> completely irrational for dealing with the real world.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And yet we manage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Only just.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The world that each of us lives in is the "real world". We,
>>>>>>>>> who live
>>>>>>>>> in the US, have no problem dealing with our system.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "No problem"?? How many yards in a mile? How many feet in a
>>>>>>>> quarter mile? How many teaspoons in a cup? If you don't know
>>>>>>>> those offhand then you obviously have problems dealing with
>>>>>>>> the system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you have a legitimate example of how we have a problem with
>>>>>>> the system, then state it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interfacing with the rest of the world.
>>>>>
>>>>> What specifically is the problem?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units
>>
>>>>
>>>> For example the whole world uses ISO A4 and the US uses US
>>>> letter.... so when the US want to communicate with the rest of the
>>>> world it has to use A4 and for internal use uses Letter.
>>>
>>> Why? I have sent letters to European companies using our letter
>>> size and received replies from them, probably on their A4 size
>>> (they're close enough
>>> that I never noticed any difference). Where's the problem?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_size
>>
>> http://betweenborders.com/wordsmithing/a4-vs-us-letter/
>>
>> For a lot of Official use it has to be on A sizes. Also Letter size
>> advertising does not fit standard size literature racks. It is
>> getting better as more of the US uses International standards.
>>
>>>> Dates are another problem the whole world bar the USA uses
>>>> DD/MM/YY and the US uses MM/DD/YY it causes problems.
>>>
>>> Again, not a problem. If I write "November 16" and you write "16
>>> November,"
>>> do either of us misunderstand the other? Besides, your statement is
>>> not quite correct.
>>
>> True but if I write 9/11/2001 when is it? November or September? Well
>> everywhere except the US it is November. Though obviously "9/11" has
>> a life of it's own.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
>>
>>> MM/DD/YY is our standard civilian form, but our military has
>>> used DD/MM/YY for many years.
>>
>> It had to as the US military needed to talk to people other than US
>> civilians. As I said it is only a problem where the US wants to talk
>> to the rest of the world. If having the worlds largest army does not
>> help then eventually you will have to change.... BTW that is why the
>> US now uses 9mm rather than .45 and NATO uses 556 rather than 7.62
>>
> We used .45 browning pistols, the BMG .50 cartridge (API) and the
> standard
> 7.62 (.30) NATO caliber. 5.56 is a smaller calliber (I think .20)
> which is supposed to be more humane to the target, thus the person
> being shot.

5.56 is also known as .223 Remington (there is a very tiny dimensional
difference in the case that might cause problems with a few firearms, but it
was originally a civilian cartridge) and it is used not because it is "more
humane to the target" but because it has less recoil than 7.62mm NATO, thus
allowing controllable full auto fire hand-held, and is lighter, thus
allowing soldiers to carry more ammunition. Note that the first time 5.56mm
was put into service it was by the US military in Vietnam, it's not
something that the US adapted as a result of pressure from somebody in the
EU. No other nation wanted anything to do with it until the US got the bugs
out of the M-16, which, as initially issued, was pretty poor.

The 9mm pistol was adopted by the US military mainly due to the difficulty
of training soldiers to shoot the .45 accurately--again it trades power for
controllability and lighter ammunition. The 9mm cartridge had been in use
worldwide for around a half a century at the time so why develop a new one?

> That was the greek mechanized infantry. Of course, all
> the fluids are measured in liters, the tank (G 127 "Leonidas" armored
> fighting vehicle) has 2 tanks with each 181 liters of diesel which
> give it an endurance of 520 km.
>
>
>>> That causes no problems here either. My
>>> sister, an ex-Navy employee retired for several years, still writes
>>> dates that way.
>>
>> There is a joke about that.
>>
>> Small split military /civil airfield in the US...
>>
>> Unidentified aircraft: Tower, Time check please!
>> Tower: Civil or Military?
>> Unidentified aircraft: What difference does it make?
>> Tower: If you are Army it is 15:00 if you are Civil it is 3 O'clock.
>> Unidentified aircraft: We are Marines.
>> Tower: It's Mid Afternoon!
>> :-)))
>>
>>
>>> And don't the Japanese still use YY/MM/DD? That is really the most
>>> logical system of all, since it automatically sorts dates correctly
>>> which neither our methods nor yours do. If we're going to change at
>>> all, we should change
>>> to the Japanese system.
>> Not at all That is the ISO system
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_format#Date_format
>>
>> There is bug endian (year first) and smal end (day first) but in
>> either case it is D M Y or Y M D in various forms. But always in
>> unit progression.
>>
>>
>>>> It is no conscience to Americans who only interact with other
>>>> Americans but as soon as Americans have to interact externally it
>>>> will cause Americans problems, time and money.
>>>
>>> It never has so far, that I know of. You are straining mightily to
>>> produce an argument for an insupportable position.
>>
>> It is the reason why until very recently no one knew what had
>> happened to Glen Miller.
>>
>> The whilst the US continues to work to different standards to the
>> rest of the world there will be problems where conversions and
>> interfaces occur. It cost Glenn Miller his life.

From: tony cooper on
On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:00:02 +0000, Chris H <chris(a)phaedsys.org>
wrote:

>>>still drives on the left. However
>>>it is a real mess and unlike the A4/Letter change the UK with it's
>>>modern road systems will find it impossible to change to the right...
>>>
>>I see. The UK can't change their driving habits,
>
>Not possible now. Too many purpose designed roads
>
>> but you expect the
>>US to change their measurement system to conform to yours.
>
>No not to mine but the whole world except the US

The point is that you say it's impossible for one little island to
change from driving on the left to driving on the right, but expect
the entire US - which dwarfs that island in size and population - to
change their entire system of weights and measures.

Not possible now. Too many purpose-designed applications.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
From: Neil Harrington on

"Chris H" <chris(a)phaedsys.org> wrote in message
news:gX++zyMutWALFAiV(a)phaedsys.demon.co.uk...
> In message <gZGdnYq9CITE_5zWnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d(a)giganews.com>, Neil
> Harrington <secret(a)illumnati.net> writes
>>
>>"Chris H" <chris(a)phaedsys.org> wrote in message
>>news:UWxjDpHSvVALFAUi(a)phaedsys.demon.co.uk...


>
>>> Dates are another problem the whole world bar the USA uses DD/MM/YY and
>>> the US uses MM/DD/YY it causes problems.
>>
>>Again, not a problem. If I write "November 16" and you write "16
>>November,"
>>do either of us misunderstand the other? Besides, your statement is not
>>quite correct.
>
> True but if I write 9/11/2001 when is it? November or September? Well
> everywhere except the US it is November. Though obviously "9/11" has a
> life of it's own.

Now there you have a point. On the other hand, a term like "Greenwich time"
can have different meanings too depending on where you are. To many it would
mean GMT; to some it might mean the time in Greenwich, Connecticut for
example. Context can change the meaning of many terms.
>
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
>
>> MM/DD/YY is our standard civilian form, but our military has
>>used DD/MM/YY for many years.
>
> It had to as the US military needed to talk to people other than US
> civilians.

There are other differences. The U.S. military uses the 24-hour clock, while
civilians use a 12-hour clock just as I believe they still do in the UK,
Canada and other English-speaking places. Why don't the Brits use a 24-hour
clock, if consistency with what the rest of the world is doing is so
important?

> As I said it is only a problem where the US wants to talk to
> the rest of the world. If having the worlds largest army does not help
> then eventually you will have to change.... BTW that is why the US now
> uses 9mm rather than .45 and NATO uses 556 rather than 7.62

Not exactly. The U.S. adopted the 9mm Parabellum cartridge because it's half
the weight of the .45 Auto, and therefore a soldier can carry twice as many
rounds. The decision was to go to a lighter but still powerful cartridge,
and the 9mm P was *there* and was commonplace among other militaries; there
would have been no point in developing a new cartridge when a perfectly
satisfactory one already existed and was in general use.

Note that in World War II all the Allies used different ammunition for
sidearms. We used the .45 Auto primarily but also the .38 Special (except
for General Patton, who used a .45 Colt and a .357 Magnum), and general
officers were issued .380 Auto pistols. The British used the .455 Webley
primarily but also revolvers in .38 S&W (which they termed .380 Webley &
Scott, I believe). The French were still using M1892 revolvers in 8mm, and
also pistols in the pipsqueak 7.65mm French caliber. The Russians of course
had their old Nagant 7.62mm revolver (a curiosity if there ever was one) as
well as the newer Tokarev pistols in a different 7.62mm cartridge. These
differences caused no problems that I'm aware of: I never heard of an army
running out of pistol ammunition because it wasn't the same size as their
allies'.

As for the 5.56mm, remember that that was an American cartridge (actually a
slight modification of the existing Remington .222 Magnum), the rifle also
developed here and later adopted by NATO, not the other way around.
Similarly the 7.62mm NATO cartridge was developed in the U.S. (where it is
also sold as a civilian sporting cartridge, the .308 Winchester). The 7.62
continues to be used as a machine gun cartridge -- as does the .50 Browning
cartridge.

>
>> That causes no problems here either. My
>>sister, an ex-Navy employee retired for several years, still writes dates
>>that way.
>
> There is a joke about that.
>
> Small split military /civil airfield in the US...
>
> Unidentified aircraft: Tower, Time check please!
> Tower: Civil or Military?
> Unidentified aircraft: What difference does it make?
> Tower: If you are Army it is 15:00 if you are Civil it is 3 O'clock.
> Unidentified aircraft: We are Marines.
> Tower: It's Mid Afternoon!
> :-)))
>
>
>>And don't the Japanese still use YY/MM/DD? That is really the most logical
>>system of all, since it automatically sorts dates correctly which neither
>>our methods nor yours do. If we're going to change at all, we should
>>change
>>to the Japanese system.
> Not at all That is the ISO system
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_format#Date_format

Yes, Googling it just now I see it's used by about two dozen countries, not
just Japan. So why doesn't the rest of the world do *that*?

The salientl point here is, the whole world has not gone along with some
wonderful universal standard as you seem to believe it should. A major
(arguably *the* major) source of our energy is still oil, which is still
measured in barrels all over the world, isn't it? It would be easy to use
some metric measure for that, but as far as I know no one has, anywhere.

>
> There is bug endian (year first) and smal end (day first) but in either
> case it is D M Y or Y M D in various forms. But always in unit
> progression.

Obviously that doesn't solve the very problem you yourself mentioned
earlier: for example, what would the date 04/05/06 mean? April 5, 2006 -- or
May 4, 2006 -- or May 6, 2004?

As I said, it's all in the context.

>
>
>>> It is no conscience to Americans who only interact with other Americans
>>> but as soon as Americans have to interact externally it will cause
>>> Americans problems, time and money.
>>
>>It never has so far, that I know of. You are straining mightily to produce
>>an argument for an insupportable position.
>
> It is the reason why until very recently no one knew what had happened
> to Glen Miller.

No one really seems to know "what had happened to Glen (sic) Miller," though
there are plenty of stories and theories, none of them having anything to do
with metric as far as I'm aware.