From: Bob Larter on
tony cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:00:02 +0000, Chris H <chris(a)phaedsys.org>
> wrote:
>
>>>> still drives on the left. However
>>>> it is a real mess and unlike the A4/Letter change the UK with it's
>>>> modern road systems will find it impossible to change to the right...
>>>>
>>> I see. The UK can't change their driving habits,
>> Not possible now. Too many purpose designed roads
>>
>>> but you expect the
>>> US to change their measurement system to conform to yours.
>> No not to mine but the whole world except the US
>
> The point is that you say it's impossible for one little island to
> change from driving on the left to driving on the right, but expect
> the entire US - which dwarfs that island in size and population - to
> change their entire system of weights and measures.

By that logic, the USA should switch everything to what the Chinese use.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
From: tony cooper on
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:08:05 +1000, Bob Larter <bobbylarter(a)gmail.com>
wrote:

>tony cooper wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:00:02 +0000, Chris H <chris(a)phaedsys.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> still drives on the left. However
>>>>> it is a real mess and unlike the A4/Letter change the UK with it's
>>>>> modern road systems will find it impossible to change to the right...
>>>>>
>>>> I see. The UK can't change their driving habits,
>>> Not possible now. Too many purpose designed roads
>>>
>>>> but you expect the
>>>> US to change their measurement system to conform to yours.
>>> No not to mine but the whole world except the US
>>
>> The point is that you say it's impossible for one little island to
>> change from driving on the left to driving on the right, but expect
>> the entire US - which dwarfs that island in size and population - to
>> change their entire system of weights and measures.
>
>By that logic, the USA should switch everything to what the Chinese use.

You really don't understand what was said, do you?

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
From: Tzortzakakis Dimitrios on

? "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet(a)cox.net> ?????? ??? ??????
news:hdscqr1qvb(a)news5.newsguy.com...
> Tzortzakakis Dimitrios wrote:
>> ? "Chris H" <chris(a)phaedsys.org> ?????? ??? ??????
>> news:gX++zyMutWALFAiV(a)phaedsys.demon.co.uk...
>>> In message <gZGdnYq9CITE_5zWnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d(a)giganews.com>, Neil
>>> Harrington <secret(a)illumnati.net> writes
>>>>
>>>> "Chris H" <chris(a)phaedsys.org> wrote in message
>>>> news:UWxjDpHSvVALFAUi(a)phaedsys.demon.co.uk...
>>>>> In message <c-CdnXIhyIZ0ypzWnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d(a)giganews.com>, Neil
>>>>> Harrington <secret(a)illumnati.net> writes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Chris H" <chris(a)phaedsys.org> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:vhLdubL4YBALFAxO(a)phaedsys.demon.co.uk...
>>>>>>> In message <1e00g51800npsuco24380ml1u76jrfa7lf(a)4ax.com>, tony
>>>>>>> cooper <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> writes
>>>>>>>> On 15 Nov 2009 06:48:13 GMT, rfischer(a)sonic.net (Ray Fischer)
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> tony cooper <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:03:59 -0000, "R. Mark Clayton"
>>>>>>>>>> <nospamclayton(a)btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> US units are a shambolic mess, inconsistent with each other
>>>>>>>>>>> and almost
>>>>>>>>>>> completely irrational for dealing with the real world.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And yet we manage.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Only just.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The world that each of us lives in is the "real world". We,
>>>>>>>>>> who live
>>>>>>>>>> in the US, have no problem dealing with our system.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "No problem"?? How many yards in a mile? How many feet in a
>>>>>>>>> quarter mile? How many teaspoons in a cup? If you don't know
>>>>>>>>> those offhand then you obviously have problems dealing with
>>>>>>>>> the system.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you have a legitimate example of how we have a problem with
>>>>>>>> the system, then state it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interfacing with the rest of the world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What specifically is the problem?
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For example the whole world uses ISO A4 and the US uses US
>>>>> letter.... so when the US want to communicate with the rest of the
>>>>> world it has to use A4 and for internal use uses Letter.
>>>>
>>>> Why? I have sent letters to European companies using our letter
>>>> size and received replies from them, probably on their A4 size
>>>> (they're close enough
>>>> that I never noticed any difference). Where's the problem?
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_size
>>>
>>> http://betweenborders.com/wordsmithing/a4-vs-us-letter/
>>>
>>> For a lot of Official use it has to be on A sizes. Also Letter size
>>> advertising does not fit standard size literature racks. It is
>>> getting better as more of the US uses International standards.
>>>
>>>>> Dates are another problem the whole world bar the USA uses
>>>>> DD/MM/YY and the US uses MM/DD/YY it causes problems.
>>>>
>>>> Again, not a problem. If I write "November 16" and you write "16
>>>> November,"
>>>> do either of us misunderstand the other? Besides, your statement is
>>>> not quite correct.
>>>
>>> True but if I write 9/11/2001 when is it? November or September? Well
>>> everywhere except the US it is November. Though obviously "9/11" has
>>> a life of it's own.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
>>>
>>>> MM/DD/YY is our standard civilian form, but our military has
>>>> used DD/MM/YY for many years.
>>>
>>> It had to as the US military needed to talk to people other than US
>>> civilians. As I said it is only a problem where the US wants to talk
>>> to the rest of the world. If having the worlds largest army does not
>>> help then eventually you will have to change.... BTW that is why the
>>> US now uses 9mm rather than .45 and NATO uses 556 rather than 7.62
>>>
>> We used .45 browning pistols, the BMG .50 cartridge (API) and the
>> standard
>> 7.62 (.30) NATO caliber. 5.56 is a smaller calliber (I think .20)
>> which is supposed to be more humane to the target, thus the person
>> being shot.
>
> 5.56 is also known as .223 Remington (there is a very tiny dimensional
> difference in the case that might cause problems with a few firearms, but
> it
> was originally a civilian cartridge) and it is used not because it is
> "more
> humane to the target" but because it has less recoil than 7.62mm NATO,
> thus
> allowing controllable full auto fire hand-held, and is lighter, thus
> allowing soldiers to carry more ammunition. Note that the first time
> 5.56mm
> was put into service it was by the US military in Vietnam, it's not
> something that the US adapted as a result of pressure from somebody in the
> EU. No other nation wanted anything to do with it until the US got the
> bugs
> out of the M-16, which, as initially issued, was pretty poor.
>
I was told so by officers, and they said that wherever a 7.62 bullet hits
you you will most certainly die,
not so like with 5.56. How many rounds does a soldier need to carry?Normal
GIs carry their G3A3
(5 1/2 kilos), bayonet and 5 magazines each 20 rounds.
Each machine gunner the HK11 (8 1/2 kilos) and 13 magazines with 20 rounds
but no bayonet.
> The 9mm pistol was adopted by the US military mainly due to the difficulty
> of training soldiers to shoot the .45 accurately--again it trades power
> for
> controllability and lighter ammunition. The 9mm cartridge had been in use
> worldwide for around a half a century at the time so why develop a new
> one?
>
I did 5 out of 6 with the .45 and I wear glasses and am very short-sighted
(There were 6 rounds in the mag and 5 hit the target).Indeed the .45 recoils
a lot. The same the G3A3 which is much lighter than the HK11 and they
share the same round. I did 70% from 300 meters with the HK11.
Note that the sights of the .50 BMG are etched in yards. Unlike the
(european) MG3 machine gun which are in meters.
>> That was the greek mechanized infantry. Of course, all
>> the fluids are measured in liters, the tank (G 127 "Leonidas" armored
>> fighting vehicle) has 2 tanks with each 181 liters of diesel which
>> give it an endurance of 520 km.
>>
>>
>>>> That causes no problems here either. My
>>>> sister, an ex-Navy employee retired for several years, still writes
>>>> dates that way.
>>>
>>> There is a joke about that.
>>>
>>> Small split military /civil airfield in the US...
>>>
>>> Unidentified aircraft: Tower, Time check please!
>>> Tower: Civil or Military?
>>> Unidentified aircraft: What difference does it make?
>>> Tower: If you are Army it is 15:00 if you are Civil it is 3 O'clock.
>>> Unidentified aircraft: We are Marines.
>>> Tower: It's Mid Afternoon!
>>> :-)))
>>>
>>>
>>>> And don't the Japanese still use YY/MM/DD? That is really the most
>>>> logical system of all, since it automatically sorts dates correctly
>>>> which neither our methods nor yours do. If we're going to change at
>>>> all, we should change
>>>> to the Japanese system.
>>> Not at all That is the ISO system
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_format#Date_format
>>>
>>> There is bug endian (year first) and smal end (day first) but in
>>> either case it is D M Y or Y M D in various forms. But always in
>>> unit progression.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> It is no conscience to Americans who only interact with other
>>>>> Americans but as soon as Americans have to interact externally it
>>>>> will cause Americans problems, time and money.
>>>>
>>>> It never has so far, that I know of. You are straining mightily to
>>>> produce an argument for an insupportable position.
>>>
>>> It is the reason why until very recently no one knew what had
>>> happened to Glen Miller.
>>>
>>> The whilst the US continues to work to different standards to the
>>> rest of the world there will be problems where conversions and
>>> interfaces occur. It cost Glenn Miller his life.
>



--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering
mechanized infantry reservist
hordad AT otenet DOT gr


From: Tzortzakakis Dimitrios on

? "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> ???a?e st? �???�a
news:3OmdnRx419o02Z_WnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>
> "Neil Harrington" <not(a)home.today> wrote in message
> news:DbydnWauBrt3qZ_WnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>
>> "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
>> news:2009111615403258821-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom...
>>> On 2009-11-16 15:26:17 -0800, "Neil Harrington" <secret(a)illumnati.net>
>>> said:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:2009111615045779149-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom...
>>>>> On 2009-11-16 14:23:21 -0800, "Neil Harrington" <secret(a)illumnati.net>
>>>>> said:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Chris H" <chris(a)phaedsys.org> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:fHCx3BOf+WALFAF1(a)phaedsys.demon.co.uk...
>>>>>>> In message <rs2dncQadslz9ZzWnZ2dnUVZ_rydnZ2d(a)giganews.com>, Neil
>>>>>>> Harrington <secret(a)illumnati.net> writes
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Chris H" <chris(a)phaedsys.org> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:rWFsDoKCAWALFACL(a)phaedsys.demon.co.uk...
>>>>>>>>> In message <e4ydnf8Ny7zCwJzWnZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d(a)giganews.com>, Neil
>>>>>>>>> Harrington <secret(a)illumnati.net> writes
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:tvGdnSo6OsafMJ3WnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:2009111517302780278-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom...
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2009-11-15 17:24:37 -0800, "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:2009111517220470933-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom...
>>>>>>>>>>> Well! - Sorrrrrry. I used to have a colt auto chambered in 9 mm.
>>>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> the most reliable auto I ever had.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You can't beat the good old 9mm, but you'll never convince .45
>>>>>>>>>> fanciers
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> that. They all have an abiding faith in those pumpkin rollers and
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> impervious to reason. ;-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Having used both the answer is "it depends" on why you are
>>>>>>>>> carrying
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> pistol and the conditions. In the 70's when I used a pistol the
>>>>>>>>> .45
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> a better choice for operational reasons for urban work. For battle
>>>>>>>>> field
>>>>>>>>> work a 9mm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you mean because of stopping power vs. firepower, I think the
>>>>>>>> much-vaunted stopping power of the .45 is largely a myth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sort of. In the 1970's body armour was not common. Certainly the
>>>>>>> terrorists we were up against did not have any. However there were a
>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>> of civilians in the urban setting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A .45 would hit the target but not usually go through and hit
>>>>>>> anything
>>>>>>> else. The faster narrower 9mm tended to go through and come out the
>>>>>>> other side thus causing collateral damage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This of course depends on the load used. In the case of a "Geneva
>>>>>> Convention-approved" full metal jacket bullet, of course that would
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> true.
>>>>>> In the case of a jacketed hollow point, I doubt it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Talking from a Law enforcement point of view, a hollow point round
>>>>> such as
>>>>> a Hydra-Shok with +P loads in 38SP, 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP give an
>>>>> enormous
>>>>> transmission of energy into the target. As a double tap into that
>>>>> target
>>>>> is more likely than not, going to eliminate that particular threat.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indoors in urban situations where there might be over penetration
>>>>> issues,
>>>>> frangible ammo such as Glaser or MagSafe rounds are very effective.
>>>>> They
>>>>> actually have a far more effective energy transmission and stopping
>>>>> power
>>>>> than some hollow points, as they expend all their energy on contact,
>>>>> rather than using that energy to penetrate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Naturally Frangibles and hollow points are not Geneva Convention
>>>>> friendly.
>>>>>
>>>>> I use both Federal Premium Law Enforcement +P Tactical Hydro-Shok and
>>>>> COR-BON +P Glaser, in 40 S&W and 45 ACP.
>>>>>
>>>>> When just burning up brass and punching paper I go through a lot of
>>>>> Winchester "White box" FMJ and reloads.
>>>>
>>>> Probably 95% of everything I've ever fired (except rimfires of course)
>>>> has
>>>> been my own handloads. I handloaded for everything I owned -- except a
>>>> French Model 1935A automatic that I never could figure out what to do
>>>> with
>>>> and finally sold. I even handloaded for a French Mle. 1892 8mm
>>>> revolver,
>>>> using .32-20 cases trimmed back to suit and sized in a .30 Carbine die,
>>>> then
>>>> loaded with lubed but unsized bullets from an ancient Lyman mould made
>>>> for
>>>> the .32-44 target revolver. Now that was interesting! No loading data
>>>> for
>>>> that round of course, and the Mle. 1892 was actually a black powder
>>>> cartridge (almost certainly the very last black powder round still in
>>>> service use in World War II), but I just winged it with about 2 gr. of
>>>> Bullseye and it worked fine.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry I sold that Mle. 1892. Perfectly useless of course, but an
>>>> interesting piece. Cylinder swung out to the right. Odd people, the
>>>> French.
>>>
>>> I haven't reloaded in years, and then it was mainly 38 SP target loads.
>>> I am still sitting on several 100 plastic 38 boxes and 1000s of cases,
>>> primers, etc, etc.
>>
>> I haven't done any loading for years either, chiefly because I've done
>> very little shooting in the last several years. I still have my Dillon
>> press and all components in my walk-in closet, and I'll get around to
>> doing some sooner or later. I still have a pretty good stock of
>> handloads.
>>
>> My problem now will probably be finding a good place to shoot. I have
>> "lifetime" privileges (because I was one of those who helped finance it)
>> to the state association's pistol range, which is next to (and on land
>> leased from) a commercial range which is within 10 miles of me. The
>> problem there is that the lease has long expired, and the last time I was
>> out there the commercial range owner was already getting grumpy about
>> shooters using that range for free instead of paying to shoot at his
>> range. And the range was originally intended just for competition
>> shooters in registered matches and tournaments, which I have not been one
>> of since the '70s. And that range owner is already facing legal and
>> financial problems because of homeowners' complaints about bullets
>> arriving on their property, even though there's probably at least a mile
>> and a good-sized hill between the range and their homes. It's hard to
>> imagine anyone at the range shooting over the hill, but who knows. Since
>> I haven't been out there for a few years I don't know what the situation
>> is now, but my guess is my "lifetime" privileges have expired.
>>
> If you want to continue shooting fine weapons at a very reasonable price,
> consider buying yourself an air pistol. They are extremely well made, the
> ammo is very cheap, and you can fire them in your living room and/or
> basement without disturbing the neighbors. They are also more accurate
> than firearms. Their initial expense is greater. (a good one will run you
> over a thousand dollars) but after that, the ammo is very cheap. (around a
> penny each round)
Seconded. I have a comet (spanish) rifle that cost me 25,000 drachmas (75
euros) in 1999, and you get a box of rounds for 10 euros (500 IIRC). It has
a rifled barrel, and adjustable sights.


--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering
mechanized infantry reservist
hordad AT otenet DOT gr


From: Savageduck on
On 2009-11-17 06:12:48 -0800, "Tzortzakakis Dimitrios" <noone(a)nospam.com> said:

> <------------------------------------Le
> Snip----------------------------------------------->

> I did 5 out of 6 with the .45 and I wear glasses and am very short-sighted
> (There were 6 rounds in the mag and 5 hit the target).Indeed the .45 recoils
> a lot. The same the G3A3 which is much lighter than the HK11 and they
> share the same round. I did 70% from 300 meters with the HK11.
> Note that the sights of the .50 BMG are etched in yards. Unlike the
> (european) MG3 machine gun which are in meters.

Wearing glasses and being short sighted shouldn't be a problem. You
should be focused on the front sight not the target.
With a little practice this is what you should be able to do with a .45.

http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/Target-0076c.jpg

--
Regards,

Savageduck