From: Mark L on
On Tue, 18 May 2010 20:15:17 -0400, "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net>
wrote:

>"Mark L" <markl071616(a)yaspamhoo.com> wrote in message
>news:6596v5ln8fnmjathc1a9i0d75d0a19m8c5(a)4ax.com...
>
>> You will find an excellent micro-example of this playing out in the
>> popular
>> TV show called "Survivor". If there was no monetary reward you would see a
>> very very different game being played. The most intelligent, wise, and
>> strongest would be the most valued members. I've lived in just such a
>> community for three years during the 70's. Living off the land on a remote
>> South Pacific island with approximately 50 to 100 others. Money had
>> absolutely no value to any of us there. I could play the TV game-show of
>> "Survivor" for a year while standing on my head, it would be an enjoyable
>> way to live, but I would not win their game. Instead (in the capitalists'
>> game of "Survivor") the most intelligent, wise, and strongest are very
>> often voted off first because they are a threat to the less intelligent,
>> less wise, but greedy. Eventually only the most self-serving,
>> manipulative,
>> and deceitful ones are left. (Does this remind you of any faction of your
>> own present society? Most call it "the government".) In a capitalist
>> promoting society you are getting a clear and frightening glimpse of the
>> evolutionary future of humanity being played out. "As is the fractal part,
>> so goes the fractal whole."
>>
>
>Was that the place they used bananas as currency?
>I can just hear the parents yelling at their kids. "YOU MUST THINK MONEY
>GROWS ON TREES."

No. Your personality and what you could do for others was your only
"currency". Those without either could not "afford" to live there and left
on their own. That kind of currency does not grow on trees, nor can someone
else just give it to you, or leave it to you in their Will. Bananas, like
everything else, was shared for free. We used one large cave for what we
called "The Library". If you happened to be foraging and gathered too much
of something or received some item from a pass-through tourist and didn't
need it, it would be put into "The Library". Where anyone who needed
anything could go and get it without even having to sign it out. No need to
return it either, unless you wanted to. "The Library" was always packed
full. It contained a few books, many utensils, emergency medical supplies,
fishing/diving gear, maps, clothing (but nobody wore clothing there so that
was mostly used to make more functional items), etc. Since we liked fresh
foods there was a rather large stockpile of unused canned-goods and other
dry-goods in "The Library" too. We had more enjoyable meals by spearing our
food on the reefs or hunting inland. Lobster, wrasse, abalone, $90 per qt.
limpet-like shellfish delicacies that are sold in specialty shops today (I
would regularly lunch on those, they were 4x's the size you can find in any
store), mountain-goat, etc. Going up into the highlands of the valley to
find all manner of fruits, nuts, and vegetables that you pay an arm and a
leg for in any store today. Even coffee-beans were readily available. I
used to roast them in a pan over a campfire. All for free. Nobody had any
set "jobs" and there were no "rulers" nor "leaders". People just did what
they enjoyed doing and doing for each other. Somehow everything always got
done. Any conflicts were usually solved by talking during dinner. After
dinners those who had no hunting nor foraging skills might offer their
services as masseuses to those who worked hard all day. Others provided
entertainment. Some acted as valuable teachers for those that wanted to
learn. Some tried their hand at all of these things.

Many who came through couldn't afford to live there for free. There was
nothing in their personality that they could or would do for others. They
would just leave without even being told to. Total failures. Perfect
reflections of present society.

Before you even bother asking the most often asked question of me, "Why did
_you_ leave this paradise?" I'll answer with the only answer that came to
me one night while laying on the grass-covered helicopter landing and
staring up into the star-filled sky: "A student's lessons are for naught if
they remain sitting at their desk." After receiving that lesson there was
no choice, my time had come, I had to leave. But not without having to
convince many others first.

From: Bill Graham on

"Mark L" <markl071616(a)yaspamhoo.com> wrote in message
news:pij6v5po2q8hivrh0sk4ravi91lptesvnf(a)4ax.com...
> On Tue, 18 May 2010 20:15:17 -0400, "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net>
> wrote:
>
>>"Mark L" <markl071616(a)yaspamhoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:6596v5ln8fnmjathc1a9i0d75d0a19m8c5(a)4ax.com...
>>
>>> You will find an excellent micro-example of this playing out in the
>>> popular
>>> TV show called "Survivor". If there was no monetary reward you would see
>>> a
>>> very very different game being played. The most intelligent, wise, and
>>> strongest would be the most valued members. I've lived in just such a
>>> community for three years during the 70's. Living off the land on a
>>> remote
>>> South Pacific island with approximately 50 to 100 others. Money had
>>> absolutely no value to any of us there. I could play the TV game-show of
>>> "Survivor" for a year while standing on my head, it would be an
>>> enjoyable
>>> way to live, but I would not win their game. Instead (in the
>>> capitalists'
>>> game of "Survivor") the most intelligent, wise, and strongest are very
>>> often voted off first because they are a threat to the less intelligent,
>>> less wise, but greedy. Eventually only the most self-serving,
>>> manipulative,
>>> and deceitful ones are left. (Does this remind you of any faction of
>>> your
>>> own present society? Most call it "the government".) In a capitalist
>>> promoting society you are getting a clear and frightening glimpse of the
>>> evolutionary future of humanity being played out. "As is the fractal
>>> part,
>>> so goes the fractal whole."
>>>
>>
>>Was that the place they used bananas as currency?
>>I can just hear the parents yelling at their kids. "YOU MUST THINK MONEY
>>GROWS ON TREES."
>
> No. Your personality and what you could do for others was your only
> "currency". Those without either could not "afford" to live there and left
> on their own. That kind of currency does not grow on trees, nor can
> someone
> else just give it to you, or leave it to you in their Will. Bananas, like
> everything else, was shared for free. We used one large cave for what we
> called "The Library". If you happened to be foraging and gathered too much
> of something or received some item from a pass-through tourist and didn't
> need it, it would be put into "The Library". Where anyone who needed
> anything could go and get it without even having to sign it out. No need
> to
> return it either, unless you wanted to. "The Library" was always packed
> full. It contained a few books, many utensils, emergency medical supplies,
> fishing/diving gear, maps, clothing (but nobody wore clothing there so
> that
> was mostly used to make more functional items), etc. Since we liked fresh
> foods there was a rather large stockpile of unused canned-goods and other
> dry-goods in "The Library" too. We had more enjoyable meals by spearing
> our
> food on the reefs or hunting inland. Lobster, wrasse, abalone, $90 per qt.
> limpet-like shellfish delicacies that are sold in specialty shops today (I
> would regularly lunch on those, they were 4x's the size you can find in
> any
> store), mountain-goat, etc. Going up into the highlands of the valley to
> find all manner of fruits, nuts, and vegetables that you pay an arm and a
> leg for in any store today. Even coffee-beans were readily available. I
> used to roast them in a pan over a campfire. All for free. Nobody had any
> set "jobs" and there were no "rulers" nor "leaders". People just did what
> they enjoyed doing and doing for each other. Somehow everything always got
> done. Any conflicts were usually solved by talking during dinner. After
> dinners those who had no hunting nor foraging skills might offer their
> services as masseuses to those who worked hard all day. Others provided
> entertainment. Some acted as valuable teachers for those that wanted to
> learn. Some tried their hand at all of these things.
>
> Many who came through couldn't afford to live there for free. There was
> nothing in their personality that they could or would do for others. They
> would just leave without even being told to. Total failures. Perfect
> reflections of present society.
>
> Before you even bother asking the most often asked question of me, "Why
> did
> _you_ leave this paradise?" I'll answer with the only answer that came to
> me one night while laying on the grass-covered helicopter landing and
> staring up into the star-filled sky: "A student's lessons are for naught
> if
> they remain sitting at their desk." After receiving that lesson there was
> no choice, my time had come, I had to leave. But not without having to
> convince many others first.
>
Reminds me of a hippie I used to work with.....He was always extolling the
mesa top in Arizona where he used to live.....A colony of hippies that
"removed themselves from society" and "made it on their own" away from all
the trials and tribulations of the modern world. I asked him what they did
when one of their members got sick, or tripped and broke something. "Oh, we
had doctors there" he said.....Doctors who were trained in huge stainless
steel hospitals, I asked. He fell silent.....And where did you buy your
drugs? - Oh, we went into town to the drugstore.....Drugs that were made in
huge stainless steel factories? - Well, you get the idea....They were not
really independent of modern society at all.......

From: Mark L on
On Wed, 19 May 2010 01:04:56 -0700, "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote:

>
>"Mark L" <markl071616(a)yaspamhoo.com> wrote in message
>news:pij6v5po2q8hivrh0sk4ravi91lptesvnf(a)4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 18 May 2010 20:15:17 -0400, "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Mark L" <markl071616(a)yaspamhoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:6596v5ln8fnmjathc1a9i0d75d0a19m8c5(a)4ax.com...
>>>
>>>> You will find an excellent micro-example of this playing out in the
>>>> popular
>>>> TV show called "Survivor". If there was no monetary reward you would see
>>>> a
>>>> very very different game being played. The most intelligent, wise, and
>>>> strongest would be the most valued members. I've lived in just such a
>>>> community for three years during the 70's. Living off the land on a
>>>> remote
>>>> South Pacific island with approximately 50 to 100 others. Money had
>>>> absolutely no value to any of us there. I could play the TV game-show of
>>>> "Survivor" for a year while standing on my head, it would be an
>>>> enjoyable
>>>> way to live, but I would not win their game. Instead (in the
>>>> capitalists'
>>>> game of "Survivor") the most intelligent, wise, and strongest are very
>>>> often voted off first because they are a threat to the less intelligent,
>>>> less wise, but greedy. Eventually only the most self-serving,
>>>> manipulative,
>>>> and deceitful ones are left. (Does this remind you of any faction of
>>>> your
>>>> own present society? Most call it "the government".) In a capitalist
>>>> promoting society you are getting a clear and frightening glimpse of the
>>>> evolutionary future of humanity being played out. "As is the fractal
>>>> part,
>>>> so goes the fractal whole."
>>>>
>>>
>>>Was that the place they used bananas as currency?
>>>I can just hear the parents yelling at their kids. "YOU MUST THINK MONEY
>>>GROWS ON TREES."
>>
>> No. Your personality and what you could do for others was your only
>> "currency". Those without either could not "afford" to live there and left
>> on their own. That kind of currency does not grow on trees, nor can
>> someone
>> else just give it to you, or leave it to you in their Will. Bananas, like
>> everything else, was shared for free. We used one large cave for what we
>> called "The Library". If you happened to be foraging and gathered too much
>> of something or received some item from a pass-through tourist and didn't
>> need it, it would be put into "The Library". Where anyone who needed
>> anything could go and get it without even having to sign it out. No need
>> to
>> return it either, unless you wanted to. "The Library" was always packed
>> full. It contained a few books, many utensils, emergency medical supplies,
>> fishing/diving gear, maps, clothing (but nobody wore clothing there so
>> that
>> was mostly used to make more functional items), etc. Since we liked fresh
>> foods there was a rather large stockpile of unused canned-goods and other
>> dry-goods in "The Library" too. We had more enjoyable meals by spearing
>> our
>> food on the reefs or hunting inland. Lobster, wrasse, abalone, $90 per qt.
>> limpet-like shellfish delicacies that are sold in specialty shops today (I
>> would regularly lunch on those, they were 4x's the size you can find in
>> any
>> store), mountain-goat, etc. Going up into the highlands of the valley to
>> find all manner of fruits, nuts, and vegetables that you pay an arm and a
>> leg for in any store today. Even coffee-beans were readily available. I
>> used to roast them in a pan over a campfire. All for free. Nobody had any
>> set "jobs" and there were no "rulers" nor "leaders". People just did what
>> they enjoyed doing and doing for each other. Somehow everything always got
>> done. Any conflicts were usually solved by talking during dinner. After
>> dinners those who had no hunting nor foraging skills might offer their
>> services as masseuses to those who worked hard all day. Others provided
>> entertainment. Some acted as valuable teachers for those that wanted to
>> learn. Some tried their hand at all of these things.
>>
>> Many who came through couldn't afford to live there for free. There was
>> nothing in their personality that they could or would do for others. They
>> would just leave without even being told to. Total failures. Perfect
>> reflections of present society.
>>
>> Before you even bother asking the most often asked question of me, "Why
>> did
>> _you_ leave this paradise?" I'll answer with the only answer that came to
>> me one night while laying on the grass-covered helicopter landing and
>> staring up into the star-filled sky: "A student's lessons are for naught
>> if
>> they remain sitting at their desk." After receiving that lesson there was
>> no choice, my time had come, I had to leave. But not without having to
>> convince many others first.
>>
>Reminds me of a hippie I used to work with.....He was always extolling the
>mesa top in Arizona where he used to live.....A colony of hippies that
>"removed themselves from society" and "made it on their own" away from all
>the trials and tribulations of the modern world. I asked him what they did
>when one of their members got sick, or tripped and broke something. "Oh, we
>had doctors there" he said.....Doctors who were trained in huge stainless
>steel hospitals, I asked. He fell silent.....And where did you buy your
>drugs? - Oh, we went into town to the drugstore.....Drugs that were made in
>huge stainless steel factories? - Well, you get the idea....They were not
>really independent of modern society at all.......

Too bad for them. We learned all the herbal cures of the culture of the
island we were on. There's a reason the emergency medical supplies were in
The Library. Nobody ever had need of them. The few that did use them were
newcomers that hadn't learned better ways yet. Did you know, for example,
that a simple Ti plant leaf can be used two ways to dress a wound? The dull
side is astringent and will help to close up a clean wound. The shiny side
has an anti-coagulative property and would allow a wound to drain and flush
out any infection. Both sides having an antibiotic property.

Did you know that during WWII when they ran out of penicillin that they
reverted back to an old "folk remedy" of using the spice Thyme to fight
infections? They found it worked better than penicillin. But since no
doctor or hospital can pay their light bills or the CEOs line their pockets
with sales of Thyme from the grocery story it's never prescribed.

Enjoy your "stainless steel factories" that the majority, and most at risk
of illness and disease, can no longer afford. The medical system of modern
society has an impending collapse of its own on the way. The incurable
world pandemic will start in whatever communities are the most financially
poor. You have ensured your own demise with greed. Do read "The Masque of
the Red Death" by Edgar Alan Poe. All the money in the world will not be
able to save you.









From: Peter on
"Neil Harrington" <never(a)home.com> wrote in message
news:Bt6dnV4NTLktxG7WnZ2dnUVZ_rydnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>
> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
> news:4bf31eb3$0$27703$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>> "Neil Harrington" <never(a)home.com> wrote in message
>> news:dKCdnb-H4sVoAG_WnZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>
>>
>>>> If you try to measure survival and evolutionary success in dollars you
>>>> are
>>>> sadly mistaken.
>>>
>>> Fine. Now go explain that to Obama, carefully pointing out to him that
>>> his central goal of "spreading the wealth around" (i.e., taking it away
>>> from those who have worked, saved and invested to gain it and
>>> distributing it to those who prefer to sit on their asses, watch TV and
>>> wait for the welfare check) really is not going to bring "success" to
>>> the recipients after all.
>>>
>> Learn from the banana republics. Learn from the communist revolution.
>> When society has two classes, haves and have nots, those of us who have
>> money tend to get more and more. Eventually the poor will rebel and we
>> will have chaos. Henry Ford has the right ides. He paid his workers
>> sufficient wages so they could afford to buy his cars.
>
> And they went on strike anyway.
>
>> Likewise, for industry to be successful in the long term, people have to
>> have enough money to afford the products, both essential and
>> non=essential.
>
> Yes. The idea, though, is for people to be productive enough to earn that
> money -- not just have it handed to them. The principle of the Little Red
> Hen applies here.
>


Yup! "Earn" being the operative word. There is something morally wrong when
we pay people in menial jobs more than teachers.
But in real life there are people who come upon hard times, through no fault
of their own. Do we let them starve on the streets, or provide a safety net
to help them get back.
The problem is that a few will play the system. It may very well cost more
to root them out, than it is worth.

--
Peter

From: Peter on
"Mark L" <markl071616(a)yaspamhoo.com> wrote in message
news:pij6v5po2q8hivrh0sk4ravi91lptesvnf(a)4ax.com...
> On Tue, 18 May 2010 20:15:17 -0400, "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net>
> wrote:
>
>>"Mark L" <markl071616(a)yaspamhoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:6596v5ln8fnmjathc1a9i0d75d0a19m8c5(a)4ax.com...
>>
>>> You will find an excellent micro-example of this playing out in the
>>> popular
>>> TV show called "Survivor". If there was no monetary reward you would see
>>> a
>>> very very different game being played. The most intelligent, wise, and
>>> strongest would be the most valued members. I've lived in just such a
>>> community for three years during the 70's. Living off the land on a
>>> remote
>>> South Pacific island with approximately 50 to 100 others. Money had
>>> absolutely no value to any of us there. I could play the TV game-show of
>>> "Survivor" for a year while standing on my head, it would be an
>>> enjoyable
>>> way to live, but I would not win their game. Instead (in the
>>> capitalists'
>>> game of "Survivor") the most intelligent, wise, and strongest are very
>>> often voted off first because they are a threat to the less intelligent,
>>> less wise, but greedy. Eventually only the most self-serving,
>>> manipulative,
>>> and deceitful ones are left. (Does this remind you of any faction of
>>> your
>>> own present society? Most call it "the government".) In a capitalist
>>> promoting society you are getting a clear and frightening glimpse of the
>>> evolutionary future of humanity being played out. "As is the fractal
>>> part,
>>> so goes the fractal whole."
>>>
>>
>>Was that the place they used bananas as currency?
>>I can just hear the parents yelling at their kids. "YOU MUST THINK MONEY
>>GROWS ON TREES."
>
> No. Your personality and what you could do for others was your only
> "currency". Those without either could not "afford" to live there and left
> on their own. That kind of currency does not grow on trees, nor can
> someone
> else just give it to you, or leave it to you in their Will. Bananas, like
> everything else, was shared for free. We used one large cave for what we
> called "The Library". If you happened to be foraging and gathered too much
> of something or received some item from a pass-through tourist and didn't
> need it, it would be put into "The Library". Where anyone who needed
> anything could go and get it without even having to sign it out. No need
> to
> return it either, unless you wanted to. "The Library" was always packed
> full. It contained a few books, many utensils, emergency medical supplies,
> fishing/diving gear, maps, clothing (but nobody wore clothing there so
> that
> was mostly used to make more functional items), etc. Since we liked fresh
> foods there was a rather large stockpile of unused canned-goods and other
> dry-goods in "The Library" too. We had more enjoyable meals by spearing
> our
> food on the reefs or hunting inland. Lobster, wrasse, abalone, $90 per qt.
> limpet-like shellfish delicacies that are sold in specialty shops today (I
> would regularly lunch on those, they were 4x's the size you can find in
> any
> store), mountain-goat, etc. Going up into the highlands of the valley to
> find all manner of fruits, nuts, and vegetables that you pay an arm and a
> leg for in any store today. Even coffee-beans were readily available. I
> used to roast them in a pan over a campfire. All for free. Nobody had any
> set "jobs" and there were no "rulers" nor "leaders". People just did what
> they enjoyed doing and doing for each other. Somehow everything always got
> done. Any conflicts were usually solved by talking during dinner. After
> dinners those who had no hunting nor foraging skills might offer their
> services as masseuses to those who worked hard all day. Others provided
> entertainment. Some acted as valuable teachers for those that wanted to
> learn. Some tried their hand at all of these things.
>
> Many who came through couldn't afford to live there for free. There was
> nothing in their personality that they could or would do for others. They
> would just leave without even being told to. Total failures. Perfect
> reflections of present society.
>
> Before you even bother asking the most often asked question of me, "Why
> did
> _you_ leave this paradise?" I'll answer with the only answer that came to
> me one night while laying on the grass-covered helicopter landing and
> staring up into the star-filled sky: "A student's lessons are for naught
> if
> they remain sitting at their desk." After receiving that lesson there was
> no choice, my time had come, I had to leave. But not without having to
> convince many others first.
>


Lighten up.

--
Peter