From: Ray Fischer on
Peter <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>"Ray Fischer" <rfischer(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
>news:4bd10ec5$0$1609$742ec2ed(a)news.sonic.net...
>> Peter <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>>>"Ray Fischer" <rfischer(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
>>>news:4bd07ce4$0$1618$742ec2ed(a)news.sonic.net...
>>>> Peter <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>"Ray Fischer" <rfischer(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> Peter <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>"Ray Fischer" <rfischer(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> Peter <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>"Ray Fischer" <rfischer(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet(a)cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I am curious as to how religion in the US could require someone to
>>>>>>>>>>>"relinquish choice". There is no mechanism by which a citizen may
>>>>>>>>>>>cede
>>>>>>>>>>>his voting rights to another party.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You haven't heard anything of the various cults which demand total
>>>>>>>>>> obedience of followers and use all manner of coercive techniques
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> obtain consent, freedom, and property?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Those abusers do not make all organized religions bad. It is an
>>>>>>>>>example
>>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>what can easily happen if we lose vigilance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Almost all religions rely upon some form of coercion to ensure a
>>>>>>>> steady
>>>>>>>> income. Usually it's by pretending that only the church can "save"
>>>>>>>> you from damnation, or by claiming that people who do not rely upon
>>>>>>>> religion are "immoral" or dangerous.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You know less about religions than you know about business.
>>>>>>>In many religions there is no central authority, to which the money
>>>>>>>flows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Who said anything about a "central authority"? I referred to
>>>>>> religions.
>>>>>> Is the money that the local priest collects any different from the
>>>>>> money the "central authority" collects?
>>>>>
>>>>>In many cases yes!
>>>>
>>>> You're either lying or stupid. Money is money. If you spend $100 on
>>>> the local priest it matters not in the slightest to you if he gives
>>>> some of that to some "central authority". You're still out $100.
>>>
>>>As I said earlier you know nothing about how churches operate.
>>
>> You're trying to change the subject.
>>
>>> You only see
>>
>> I see another disgusting apologist.
>
>Right I apologize for caring.

You care more about your cult than you care about people.

--
Ray Fischer
rfischer(a)sonic.net

From: Bill Graham on

"Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
news:4bd12947$1$27759$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:6ZKdnQZ4zpgka03WnZ2dnUVZ_v6dnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>
>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>> news:4bceed65$1$27721$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:TaydnVY_u-H5B1PWnZ2dnUVZ_h-dnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Chris Malcolm" <cam(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:833p8cF5onU2(a)mid.individual.net...
>>>>> In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Bill Graham <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>> "David Ruether" <d_ruether(a)thotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:hqhncg$75b$1(a)ruby.cit.cornell.edu...
>>>>>
>>>>>>> You do seem to generalize from only a few instances to "pasting"
>>>>>>> your evident low regard for some of those in need to all such. As
>>>>>>> I have pointed out before, there will always be exceptions who
>>>>>>> may not be worthy of help - but that BY NO MEANS indicates
>>>>>>> that most who receive it are not in need of it for basic living
>>>>>>> resources, and also use it to the best of their abilities. Few get
>>>>>>> rich
>>>>>>> on welfare...;-)
>>>>>>> --DR
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey! Show me these, "Most" of whom you speak.....I lived and worked
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> California for over 40 years, I knew many people who were welfare
>>>>>> puppies. I
>>>>>> have only known a very few who actually deserved some help from the
>>>>>> taxpayers.
>>>>>
>>>>> You remind me of an old friend. After living for a year in my home
>>>>> city he told me was fed up with it and going back to London. The
>>>>> reason he gave was that it was a dreadful city, full of unemployed
>>>>> benefit cheats who spent all their time working out how to swindle
>>>>> more money out of the government. I said I hardly knew any benefit
>>>>> cheats. He said yes you do, and named two we both knew. I pointed out
>>>>> to him he had introduced me to them.
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words while he knew loads of benefit cheats, the only ones I
>>>>> knew people he'd introduced me to. So it was clear that the question
>>>>> wasn't why was the city full of benefit cheats. The question was why
>>>>> he knew so many of them :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>> My own experience tells me that the system is F***** up. The
>>>>>> statistics of less than 2% I got from reading about the welfare
>>>>>> system in
>>>>>> papers and books....I didn't just pull it out of the air.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have plenty of papers and books that say the same kind of thing
>>>>> about the UK. And political parties too. But we also have official
>>>>> statistics which show that the truth is quite different.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do the official statistics match up with these papers and books
>>>>> you read?
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Chris Malcolm
>>>>
>>>> I believe I already mentioned that fewer than 2% of those on welfare
>>>> have some disability, either physical or mental. But it doesn't
>>>> matter.....You are either a believer or you aren't, and there is no way
>>>> I am going to change your mind. I go by my own knowledge and
>>>> experience.....I "escaped" from California to Oregon 13 years
>>>> ago.....Now, I can see Oregon rapidly becoming another California, and
>>>> the whole country rapidly becoming another California too.....They are
>>>> talking about adding a Value Added Tax to everything we buy. Our
>>>> government is desperately grasping at any excuse to get more money from
>>>> us anyway they can, and adding bureaucracy after bureaucracy to spend
>>>> more and more of our incomes on more and more government
>>>> employees.....I see no end to it, and obviously there is nothing I can
>>>> possibly do about it, so I am just wasting my time trying to warn
>>>> others about it. At this stage in my life, (I am 74) the best thing I
>>>> can do is just pursue my hobbies and enjoy what life I have left, and
>>>> let the next generation lie in whatever bed we have prepared for them.
>>>> I can only hope that my private papers and letters tell them that I did
>>>> my best to warn them of what was happening so they don't put too much
>>>> of the blame on me. Not that I believe it will matter after I am gone
>>>> anyway. I am a godless person, and do not believe in any afterlife.
>>>> This country is only about 250 years old.....I doubt seriously if it
>>>> will last another 100 years. It is obvious to me that human beings are
>>>> incapable of sustaining a free existence indefinitely.....I guess we
>>>> are too corrupt, or too lazy, or too uneducated, or all three.
>>>
>>>
>>> And you have never produced a reliable source for that statistic.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Peter
>> Why should I? I believe it, and I vote according to it. If you don't
>> believe it, then you should find your own statistics, and vote in
>> accordance with them. first you attack my logic. Then, when I prove my
>> case logically, you resort to attacking my facts. I am not going to
>> search for the verification of my facts just for your benefit. My
>> experience tells me that my facts are good. I have known several dozen
>> welfare puppies and never one who was disabled in any way, so my
>> experience tells me that my statistic is as I remember it. If you don't
>> believe it, then happily give your hard earned money to the government
>> and tell them to give it away to welfare takers. I can't help it if you
>> are stupid. It is too late for me to save any money for myself
>> anyway.....As I say, I haven't had to pay any taxes at all for the last 5
>> years or so, and it is obvious to me that I won't have to pay any for the
>> rest of my life. So it is YOUR money that is being poured into this black
>> hole, and not mine. Why should I bother to tell you about it? Obviously,
>> you are too stupid to benefit from my experience, so you ask me to prove
>> it to you.....Give me a break!
>
>
> Prove your 98% figure. See my prior posting.
>
> I think there are little purple people that visit your house when you are
> sleeping. They disappear when you wake up. While you are sleeping the
> induce subliminal thoughts of your self importance. It's my recollection.
> My logic is perfect you cannot attack it. So you will resort to attacking
> my facts.
> Prove me wrong.
>
> --
> Peter
Both my experience and my memory tell me that less than 2% of those on the
welfare program in the state of California are disabled either mentally or
physically. If you don't believe me, then you prove me wrong. I believe it,
and this is why I am against the governments welfare program. It is not the
case that I have to prove every fact that I know in order to believe and
advise everyone I talk to. Certainly you don't prove every fact that you
cite on this or any other forum. Nor do most of those who post here. But
when I make a mistake, those who disagree with me are very quick to jump on
it.....So, I am content to wait for that to happen. It is not enough for you
to not believe my statistic. You must come up with one of your own. If I am
wrong, and you believe that I am so wrong that my point is unbelievable,
then YOU prove it so.....Just how many disabled people would have to be on
welfare before you would consider the program acceptable? Or, would you
accept the program as it stands even if my statistic were correct? I believe
the latter is the case, so why should I bother with you? I have never found
in the past that liberals are persuaded by facts, so why should I bother
now?

From: Bill Graham on

"Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
news:4bd12aaa$0$27752$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:jPadnTBtnezHZU3WnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>
>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>> news:4bceed65$3$27721$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>
>>> Can you say derivatives?
>>> Amazing, you have actually spouted a "liberal" concept. It's your own
>>> fault your car was stolen. You left the keys in it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Peter
>> The derivatives were a spin-off of the basic problem. People who saw it
>> coming were making money by gambling on it. It's the original problem
>> that caused the crash. And that was expecting the real estate market to
>> continue to rise forever. (nothing rises forever) and making risky loans
>> based on that stupidity. And the democrats are still encouraging the
>> banks to do that, and backing them up with my tax dollars.......there is
>> no end to their stupidity.
> Whoosh~
>
> They were selling the derivatives to customers while betting that they
> would go bad.
>
The customers that were buying these derivatives were highly sophisticated
gamblers. They should have known better. I certainly didn't buy them,
because I don't play the markets that way. I have my retirement funds
invested in much more stable instruments. I don't, in general gamble in the
stock market, although I have been known to take a chance now and then, but
always on a small scale. (relatively) And, when I do, I am never surprised
when I lose.

From: Peter on
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4bce6f4f$0$1601$742ec2ed(a)news.sonic.net...
> Peter <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>>"Ray Fischer" <rfischer(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet(a)cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>I am curious as to how religion in the US could require someone to
>>>>"relinquish choice". There is no mechanism by which a citizen may cede
>>>>his voting rights to another party.
>>>
>>> You haven't heard anything of the various cults which demand total
>>> obedience of followers and use all manner of coercive techniques to
>>> obtain consent, freedom, and property?
>>
>>Those abusers do not make all organized religions bad. It is an example of
>>what can easily happen if we lose vigilance.
>
> Almost all religions rely upon some form of coercion to ensure a steady
> income. Usually it's by pretending that only the church can "save"
> you from damnation, or by claiming that people who do not rely upon
> religion are "immoral" or dangerous.
>

You know less about religions than you know about business.
In many religions there is no central authority, to which the money flows.

--
Peter

From: Peter on
"Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
news:TaydnVY_u-H5B1PWnZ2dnUVZ_h-dnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>
> "Chris Malcolm" <cam(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:833p8cF5onU2(a)mid.individual.net...
>> In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Bill Graham <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote:
>>> "David Ruether" <d_ruether(a)thotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:hqhncg$75b$1(a)ruby.cit.cornell.edu...
>>
>>>> You do seem to generalize from only a few instances to "pasting"
>>>> your evident low regard for some of those in need to all such. As
>>>> I have pointed out before, there will always be exceptions who
>>>> may not be worthy of help - but that BY NO MEANS indicates
>>>> that most who receive it are not in need of it for basic living
>>>> resources, and also use it to the best of their abilities. Few get rich
>>>> on welfare...;-)
>>>> --DR
>>>>
>>> Hey! Show me these, "Most" of whom you speak.....I lived and worked in
>>> California for over 40 years, I knew many people who were welfare
>>> puppies. I
>>> have only known a very few who actually deserved some help from the
>>> taxpayers.
>>
>> You remind me of an old friend. After living for a year in my home
>> city he told me was fed up with it and going back to London. The
>> reason he gave was that it was a dreadful city, full of unemployed
>> benefit cheats who spent all their time working out how to swindle
>> more money out of the government. I said I hardly knew any benefit
>> cheats. He said yes you do, and named two we both knew. I pointed out
>> to him he had introduced me to them.
>>
>> In other words while he knew loads of benefit cheats, the only ones I
>> knew people he'd introduced me to. So it was clear that the question
>> wasn't why was the city full of benefit cheats. The question was why
>> he knew so many of them :-)
>>
>>> My own experience tells me that the system is F***** up. The
>>> statistics of less than 2% I got from reading about the welfare system
>>> in
>>> papers and books....I didn't just pull it out of the air.
>>
>> We have plenty of papers and books that say the same kind of thing
>> about the UK. And political parties too. But we also have official
>> statistics which show that the truth is quite different.
>>
>> How do the official statistics match up with these papers and books
>> you read?
>>
>> --
>> Chris Malcolm
>
> I believe I already mentioned that fewer than 2% of those on welfare have
> some disability, either physical or mental. But it doesn't matter.....You
> are either a believer or you aren't, and there is no way I am going to
> change your mind. I go by my own knowledge and experience.....I "escaped"
> from California to Oregon 13 years ago.....Now, I can see Oregon rapidly
> becoming another California, and the whole country rapidly becoming
> another California too.....They are talking about adding a Value Added Tax
> to everything we buy. Our government is desperately grasping at any excuse
> to get more money from us anyway they can, and adding bureaucracy after
> bureaucracy to spend more and more of our incomes on more and more
> government employees.....I see no end to it, and obviously there is
> nothing I can possibly do about it, so I am just wasting my time trying to
> warn others about it. At this stage in my life, (I am 74) the best thing I
> can do is just pursue my hobbies and enjoy what life I have left, and let
> the next generation lie in whatever bed we have prepared for them. I can
> only hope that my private papers and letters tell them that I did my best
> to warn them of what was happening so they don't put too much of the blame
> on me. Not that I believe it will matter after I am gone anyway. I am a
> godless person, and do not believe in any afterlife. This country is only
> about 250 years old.....I doubt seriously if it will last another 100
> years. It is obvious to me that human beings are incapable of sustaining a
> free existence indefinitely.....I guess we are too corrupt, or too lazy,
> or too uneducated, or all three.


And you have never produced a reliable source for that statistic.

--
Peter