From: tony cooper on
On Wed, 5 May 2010 19:35:56 -0400, "Peter"
<peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:

>"tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:sjs3u5dgulnnl8vnra6qdj5qtt8jqaco06(a)4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 5 May 2010 09:32:49 -0400, "Peter"
>> <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>>
>>>"Neil Harrington" <never(a)home.com> wrote in message
>>>news:KP2dnX6auNel9XzWnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:4be14ba7$1$7706$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:846dndujn9PbRn3WnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4bdffec6$1$27720$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>>>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:feqdnRdL4qPZMELWnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, and our government has defined marriage, so all non-felons
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> be allowed to participate in it. <snip>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In what State are felons not permitted to marry?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>> I was speaking of the general fact that constitutional rights are
>>>>>> available to all non felons......
>>>>>
>>>>> Exactly where in the Constitution does it say that felons lose their
>>>>> rights. And which rights are you talking about. Aside from possibly
>>>>> some
>>>>> under the Second Amendment, which has never been tested?
>>>>
>>>> In many (if not most) states, convicted felons lose the right to vote.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Only while incarcerated.
>>
>> In Florida, a convicted felon loses his/her voting right, rights to
>> hold public office in Florida, serve on a jury, and obtain certain job
>> licenses. The rights are not restored after release from prison, but
>> the person can apply for restoration to the Governor. Restoration is
>> not guaranteed.
>>
>
>Back to the original drift:
>None of the rights you mentin are Constitutional.

Indirectly, they are. The Constitution's Tenth Amendment says: "The
powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States
respectively, or to the people." This allows the states to enact laws
that restrict the rights of convicted felons.

>Restoration of
>professional licenses should be discretionary. Not all felonys are equal.
>The circumstances of commission of the crime, even the same crime may not be
>equal. One guy may hold up a convenience store because his familoy is
>starving and he sees no other way to feed them and it is his first time. The
>other may hold up a convenience store to feed a drug habit and he has done
>this at least three other times.

I don't buy that, and I'm a liberal on social issues. The two
criminals should be treated equally. The reason they committed a
criminal act of this type is not relevant to them becoming a convicted
felon. It may be relevant to the sentence, but not the conviction and
resulting status of a convicted felon.

Holding up a convenience store strongly implies some threat to the
store personnel. I wouldn't compare a hold up to shoplifting or petty
theft, but a hold up is one person threatening either injury or death
to another person if the hold up is not acquiesced to.


>
>>
>>>I am not sure of most States. But in NY upon completion of the sentence,
>>>voting rights are restored. I think. or hope, many if not all, states
>>>have
>>>provision for restoration of voting rights upon completion of the
>>>sentence.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
From: Peter on
"tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:l924u5t5018sd4jnmnm9npft2a67jcp37b(a)4ax.com...
> On Wed, 5 May 2010 19:35:56 -0400, "Peter"
> <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>
>>"tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>news:sjs3u5dgulnnl8vnra6qdj5qtt8jqaco06(a)4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 5 May 2010 09:32:49 -0400, "Peter"
>>> <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Neil Harrington" <never(a)home.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:KP2dnX6auNel9XzWnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:4be14ba7$1$7706$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:846dndujn9PbRn3WnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:4bdffec6$1$27720$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>>>>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:feqdnRdL4qPZMELWnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, and our government has defined marriage, so all non-felons
>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>> be allowed to participate in it. <snip>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In what State are felons not permitted to marry?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>> I was speaking of the general fact that constitutional rights are
>>>>>>> available to all non felons......
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly where in the Constitution does it say that felons lose their
>>>>>> rights. And which rights are you talking about. Aside from possibly
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> under the Second Amendment, which has never been tested?
>>>>>
>>>>> In many (if not most) states, convicted felons lose the right to vote.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Only while incarcerated.
>>>
>>> In Florida, a convicted felon loses his/her voting right, rights to
>>> hold public office in Florida, serve on a jury, and obtain certain job
>>> licenses. The rights are not restored after release from prison, but
>>> the person can apply for restoration to the Governor. Restoration is
>>> not guaranteed.
>>>
>>
>>Back to the original drift:
>>None of the rights you mentin are Constitutional.
>
> Indirectly, they are. The Constitution's Tenth Amendment says: "The
> powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
> prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States
> respectively, or to the people." This allows the states to enact laws
> that restrict the rights of convicted felons.

Perhaps I was not clear. I thought I was referring to those rights not being
guaranteed under the Constitution. clearly they are not and it is up to each
State to administer them as it sees fit.

>
>>Restoration of
>>professional licenses should be discretionary. Not all felonys are equal.
>>The circumstances of commission of the crime, even the same crime may not
>>be
>>equal. One guy may hold up a convenience store because his familoy is
>>starving and he sees no other way to feed them and it is his first time.
>>The
>>other may hold up a convenience store to feed a drug habit and he has done
>>this at least three other times.
>
> I don't buy that, and I'm a liberal on social issues. The two
> criminals should be treated equally. The reason they committed a
> criminal act of this type is not relevant to them becoming a convicted
> felon. It may be relevant to the sentence, but not the conviction and
> resulting status of a convicted felon.
>

I agree. I don't think I said the circumstances I outlined should be
considered on the question of whether a crime was comitted. But,
circumstances certainly should be relevant in the determination of whether
certain rights should be restored, which was the context of my comment.

> Holding up a convenience store strongly implies some threat to the
> store personnel. I wouldn't compare a hold up to shoplifting or petty
> theft, but a hold up is one person threatening either injury or death
> to another person if the hold up is not acquiesced to.

I deliberately used hold up as an example of my point, for that very reason.



--
Peter

From: Peter on
"Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
news:2010050517464843042-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom...



>
> In 20 States, Alaska, Arkansas, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana,
> Maryland, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Jersey, New Mexico, N.
> Carolina, Oklahoma, S. Carolina, Texas, Washington, West Virginia, and
> Wisconsin, convicted felons are denied voting rights only while serving
> their sentence and parole. Once completed their voting rights are
> automatically returned by the state, without petition.
> Delaware extends the loss of voting right another 5 years after completion
> of sentence & parole.

Add New York to the above list.

>
> Maine & Vermont allow convicted felons to vote. In those two states
> disenfranchisement has to be a specific part of the sentence.
>
> In the remaining 27 states, loss of voting rights is permanent.
>
> Now I can speak to the situation in California. Here upon completion of
> parole there are several different petition routes to restoration of
> voting rights; a petition to the governor for recognition as a
> rehabilitated felon and restoration of rights, or a petition for a
> Gubernatorial pardon and expungement of the conviction.
>
> Also in California, convicted felons cannot possess, or have access to
> firearms or ammunition even after completion of parole. Property rights
> remain intact.

Isn't there a petition route for restoration of certain rights in the other
States, too?


--
Peter

From: Peter on
"Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
news:2010050518023922503-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom...

> With apologies to Chico Marx, "The Sanity Clause? Everybody knows there
> ain't no Sanity Claus!"
>
Yes there is. What do you think happens to a cat who runs on the beach.



--
Peter

From: Peter on
"Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
news:2010050518113982327-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom...
> On 2010-05-05 17:59:48 -0700, "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> said:
>
>> "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
>> news:2010050517464843042-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom...
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> In 20 States, Alaska, Arkansas, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas,
>>> Louisiana, Maryland, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Jersey, New
>>> Mexico, N. Carolina, Oklahoma, S. Carolina, Texas, Washington, West
>>> Virginia, and Wisconsin, convicted felons are denied voting rights only
>>> while serving their sentence and parole. Once completed their voting
>>> rights are automatically returned by the state, without petition.
>>> Delaware extends the loss of voting right another 5 years after
>>> completion of sentence & parole.
>>
>> Add New York to the above list.
>
> OK.
>
>>
>>>
>>> Maine & Vermont allow convicted felons to vote. In those two states
>>> disenfranchisement has to be a specific part of the sentence.
>>>
>>> In the remaining 27 states, loss of voting rights is permanent.
>>>
>>> Now I can speak to the situation in California. Here upon completion of
>>> parole there are several different petition routes to restoration of
>>> voting rights; a petition to the governor for recognition as a
>>> rehabilitated felon and restoration of rights, or a petition for a
>>> Gubernatorial pardon and expungement of the conviction.
>>>
>>> Also in California, convicted felons cannot possess, or have access to
>>> firearms or ammunition even after completion of parole. Property rights
>>> remain intact.
>>
>> Isn't there a petition route for restoration of certain rights in the
>> other States, too?
>
> That I do not know. I am only familiar with the Californian situation.
>
> I know there have been challenges with felons who have moved from a state
> permanently denying voting rights to felons to one restoring those rights.
> California to Washington for example. There as far as I understand things
> the loss of Federal voting rights extend to the new state, until restored
> by the convicting state.
> So a background check in Washington, or NY for that matter on a felon
> convicted in California, would show that conviction and subsequent loss of
> voting rights, and restrictions regarding possession of firearms.
>


I was asking seriously. I don't know the answer either.


--
Peter