From: tony cooper on
On Wed, 5 May 2010 20:43:05 -0400, "Peter"
<peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:

>"tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:l924u5t5018sd4jnmnm9npft2a67jcp37b(a)4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 5 May 2010 19:35:56 -0400, "Peter"
>> <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>>
>>>"tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>news:sjs3u5dgulnnl8vnra6qdj5qtt8jqaco06(a)4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 5 May 2010 09:32:49 -0400, "Peter"
>>>> <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Neil Harrington" <never(a)home.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:KP2dnX6auNel9XzWnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4be14ba7$1$7706$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>>>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:846dndujn9PbRn3WnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:4bdffec6$1$27720$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>>>>>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:feqdnRdL4qPZMELWnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and our government has defined marriage, so all non-felons
>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>> be allowed to participate in it. <snip>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In what State are felons not permitted to marry?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>> I was speaking of the general fact that constitutional rights are
>>>>>>>> available to all non felons......
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Exactly where in the Constitution does it say that felons lose their
>>>>>>> rights. And which rights are you talking about. Aside from possibly
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> under the Second Amendment, which has never been tested?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In many (if not most) states, convicted felons lose the right to vote.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Only while incarcerated.
>>>>
>>>> In Florida, a convicted felon loses his/her voting right, rights to
>>>> hold public office in Florida, serve on a jury, and obtain certain job
>>>> licenses. The rights are not restored after release from prison, but
>>>> the person can apply for restoration to the Governor. Restoration is
>>>> not guaranteed.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Back to the original drift:
>>>None of the rights you mentin are Constitutional.
>>
>> Indirectly, they are. The Constitution's Tenth Amendment says: "The
>> powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
>> prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States
>> respectively, or to the people." This allows the states to enact laws
>> that restrict the rights of convicted felons.
>
>Perhaps I was not clear. I thought I was referring to those rights not being
>guaranteed under the Constitution. clearly they are not and it is up to each
>State to administer them as it sees fit.
>
Nor did I say they were.

>>
>>>Restoration of
>>>professional licenses should be discretionary. Not all felonys are equal.
>>>The circumstances of commission of the crime, even the same crime may not
>>>be
>>>equal. One guy may hold up a convenience store because his familoy is
>>>starving and he sees no other way to feed them and it is his first time.
>>>The
>>>other may hold up a convenience store to feed a drug habit and he has done
>>>this at least three other times.
>>
>> I don't buy that, and I'm a liberal on social issues. The two
>> criminals should be treated equally. The reason they committed a
>> criminal act of this type is not relevant to them becoming a convicted
>> felon. It may be relevant to the sentence, but not the conviction and
>> resulting status of a convicted felon.
>>
>
>I agree. I don't think I said the circumstances I outlined should be
>considered on the question of whether a crime was comitted. But,
>circumstances certainly should be relevant in the determination of whether
>certain rights should be restored, which was the context of my comment.

I don't agree there, either. A person is, or is not, a convicted
felon. Certain crimes are designated as felonies. We don't need
another layer of government to decide if this convicted felon should
or should not be treated differently from that convicted felon.

Most states are having trouble with the current budget in providing
court personnel. There's no room in the budget to hire people to
evaluate convicted felons about whether or not they get the vote,
right to sit on a jury, or ability to run for public office.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
From: tony cooper on
On Wed, 5 May 2010 17:46:48 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>On 2010-05-05 16:35:56 -0700, "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> said:
>
>> "tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:sjs3u5dgulnnl8vnra6qdj5qtt8jqaco06(a)4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 5 May 2010 09:32:49 -0400, "Peter"
>>> <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Neil Harrington" <never(a)home.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:KP2dnX6auNel9XzWnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:4be14ba7$1$7706$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:846dndujn9PbRn3WnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:4bdffec6$1$27720$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>>>>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:feqdnRdL4qPZMELWnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, and our government has defined marriage, so all non-felons should
>>>>>>>>> be allowed to participate in it. <snip>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In what State are felons not permitted to marry?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>> I was speaking of the general fact that constitutional rights are
>>>>>>> available to all non felons......
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly where in the Constitution does it say that felons lose their
>>>>>> rights. And which rights are you talking about. Aside from possibly some
>>>>>> under the Second Amendment, which has never been tested?
>>>>>
>>>>> In many (if not most) states, convicted felons lose the right to vote.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Only while incarcerated.
>>>
>>> In Florida, a convicted felon loses his/her voting right, rights to
>>> hold public office in Florida, serve on a jury, and obtain certain job
>>> licenses. The rights are not restored after release from prison, but
>>> the person can apply for restoration to the Governor. Restoration is
>>> not guaranteed.
>>>
>>
>> Back to the original drift:
>> None of the rights you mentin are Constitutional. Restoration of
>> professional licenses should be discretionary. Not all felonys are
>> equal. The circumstances of commission of the crime, even the same
>> crime may not be equal. One guy may hold up a convenience store because
>> his familoy is starving and he sees no other way to feed them and it is
>> his first time. The other may hold up a convenience store to feed a
>> drug habit and he has done this at least three other times.
>
>In 20 States, Alaska, Arkansas, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas,
>Louisiana, Maryland, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Jersey, New
>Mexico, N. Carolina, Oklahoma, S. Carolina, Texas, Washington, West
>Virginia, and Wisconsin, convicted felons are denied voting rights only
>while serving their sentence and parole. Once completed their voting
>rights are automatically returned by the state, without petition.
>Delaware extends the loss of voting right another 5 years after
>completion of sentence & parole.
>
>Maine & Vermont allow convicted felons to vote. In those two states
>disenfranchisement has to be a specific part of the sentence.
>
>In the remaining 27 states, loss of voting rights is permanent.

Not "permanent" in Florida. Convicted felons permanently lose the
right to vote but can apply for RCR (Restoration of Civil Rights).

This came into play in the last Presidential election. This is
primarily a Republican state, so the Democrats worked hard to push
through RCR applications and added many voters by doing so. It seems
that most convicted felons are Democrats or are willing to vote for
Democrats.

That is not because Democrats tend to be criminals. It's because the
Republican criminals have better lawyers or are lawyers.






--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
From: Neil Harrington on

"Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
news:2010050519034931729-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom...
> On 2010-05-05 18:20:24 -0700, "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> said:
>
>> "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
>> news:2010050518023922503-savageduck1(a)REMOVESPAMmecom...
>>
>>> With apologies to Chico Marx, "The Sanity Clause? Everybody knows there
>>> ain't no Sanity Claus!"
>>>
>> Yes there is. What do you think happens to a cat who runs on the beach.
>
> I believe those are "sandy claws." ;-)

No, no, no. Sandy Claws is the fat old guy in the red suit running the
sweatshop at the North Pole. I believe they make small Canon cameras called
Elves, and electronic flash units called Blitzens. I'm sure I have that
right.


From: Neil Harrington on

"tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4a74u5tncc0itptahvpjsga20qde8q4npv(a)4ax.com...
> On Wed, 5 May 2010 17:46:48 -0700, Savageduck
> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2010-05-05 16:35:56 -0700, "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> said:
>>
>>> "tony cooper" <tony_cooper213(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> news:sjs3u5dgulnnl8vnra6qdj5qtt8jqaco06(a)4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 5 May 2010 09:32:49 -0400, "Peter"
>>>> <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Neil Harrington" <never(a)home.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:KP2dnX6auNel9XzWnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4be14ba7$1$7706$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>>>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:846dndujn9PbRn3WnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:4bdffec6$1$27720$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>>>>>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:feqdnRdL4qPZMELWnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and our government has defined marriage, so all non-felons
>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>> be allowed to participate in it. <snip>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In what State are felons not permitted to marry?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>> I was speaking of the general fact that constitutional rights are
>>>>>>>> available to all non felons......
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Exactly where in the Constitution does it say that felons lose their
>>>>>>> rights. And which rights are you talking about. Aside from possibly
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> under the Second Amendment, which has never been tested?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In many (if not most) states, convicted felons lose the right to
>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Only while incarcerated.
>>>>
>>>> In Florida, a convicted felon loses his/her voting right, rights to
>>>> hold public office in Florida, serve on a jury, and obtain certain job
>>>> licenses. The rights are not restored after release from prison, but
>>>> the person can apply for restoration to the Governor. Restoration is
>>>> not guaranteed.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Back to the original drift:
>>> None of the rights you mentin are Constitutional. Restoration of
>>> professional licenses should be discretionary. Not all felonys are
>>> equal. The circumstances of commission of the crime, even the same
>>> crime may not be equal. One guy may hold up a convenience store because
>>> his familoy is starving and he sees no other way to feed them and it is
>>> his first time. The other may hold up a convenience store to feed a
>>> drug habit and he has done this at least three other times.
>>
>>In 20 States, Alaska, Arkansas, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas,
>>Louisiana, Maryland, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Jersey, New
>>Mexico, N. Carolina, Oklahoma, S. Carolina, Texas, Washington, West
>>Virginia, and Wisconsin, convicted felons are denied voting rights only
>>while serving their sentence and parole. Once completed their voting
>>rights are automatically returned by the state, without petition.
>>Delaware extends the loss of voting right another 5 years after
>>completion of sentence & parole.
>>
>>Maine & Vermont allow convicted felons to vote. In those two states
>>disenfranchisement has to be a specific part of the sentence.
>>
>>In the remaining 27 states, loss of voting rights is permanent.
>
> Not "permanent" in Florida. Convicted felons permanently lose the
> right to vote but can apply for RCR (Restoration of Civil Rights).
>
> This came into play in the last Presidential election. This is
> primarily a Republican state, so the Democrats worked hard to push
> through RCR applications and added many voters by doing so. It seems
> that most convicted felons are Democrats or are willing to vote for
> Democrats.
>
> That is not because Democrats tend to be criminals. It's because the
> Republican criminals have better lawyers or are lawyers.

<GUFFAW!>

Democrats may not tend to be criminals, but criminals tend to be Democrats.
(Wouldn't you be, if you were a criminal?)

Here in Connecticut convicted felons have often managed to vote despite its
being illegal. Apparently not much is done to them when caught doing it, and
once the vote is in it's in. One felon said with some pride, "I ALWAYS vote!
And I always vote Democrat!"

Several years ago one of our Democrat representatives won reelection by an
extremely narrow margin -- only a few votes, and it turned out to be
actually a smaller number of votes than the number of felons that were found
to have voted that year. Makes you wonder.


From: Neil Harrington on

"Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
news:VdCdnVER5Ks0dHzWnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>
> "Neil Harrington" <never(a)home.com> wrote in message
> news:KP2dnX6auNel9XzWnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>
>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>> news:4be14ba7$1$7706$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:846dndujn9PbRn3WnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Peter" <peternew(a)nospamoptonline.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:4bdffec6$1$27720$8f2e0ebb(a)news.shared-secrets.com...
>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:feqdnRdL4qPZMELWnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, and our government has defined marriage, so all non-felons
>>>>>> should be allowed to participate in it. <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>> In what State are felons not permitted to marry?
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Peter
>>>> I was speaking of the general fact that constitutional rights are
>>>> available to all non felons......
>>>
>>> Exactly where in the Constitution does it say that felons lose their
>>> rights. And which rights are you talking about. Aside from possibly some
>>> under the Second Amendment, which has never been tested?
>>
>> In many (if not most) states, convicted felons lose the right to vote.
>
> Felons don't have the right to own weapons, or vote, and there are other
> rights they don't have.

G. Gordon Liddy had an interesting comment on this. He said that being a
convicted felon (after Watergate) he couldn't own a gun, "but my wife owns a
gun -- and she keeps it on my side of the bed."