From: Richard Knoppow on

"Helge Nareid" <hn.v06(a)hnareid.me.uk> wrote in message
news:n79s84dr4uaj3umh7l3ja25kqoev96a8dv(a)4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:46:15 -0700, "Richard Knoppow"
<dickburk(a)ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>
>"Helge Nareid" <hn.v06(a)hnareid.me.uk> wrote in message
>news:e2np84l4uiphae92att5bujhktuec4483n(a)4ax.com...
>On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:04:47 -0700, "Richard Knoppow"
><dickburk(a)ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, first of all I am searching to satisfy my
>>curiousity. Secondly, most of the patents I look at are
>>very
>>old, long expired, and not useful for anyone trying to
>>guess
>>what new, novel, and useful things I am inventing. I doubt
>>if anyone doing serious patent searches for the purpose
>>of,
>>say, finding out if something is prior art, would use
>>Google
>>and one can not use the USPTO site for that except for a
>>fee: the free searching has a limit.

[... big snip ...]
>
> Its good to hear from you Helge and to know that you
>still follow this group. Google Patents works only for US
>patents. I will try the link you gave for others. Most of
>the patents I look for are for historical research, the
>sites I've tried for European and English patents do not go
>back far enough.

Hi there Richard. I never really left this group, but since
that I
don't do any darkroom work these days - for various reasons
but mainly
because I don't have my own darkroom any longer, I've mainly
been
lurking.

I should have paid more attention to your original remark.
As you will
be well aware, there is a significant cost to scanning
pre-digital
patent documents and converting them to searchable text.

Given that most patent search engines are focused on current
technology, the support for older patents can be somewhat
sketchy.

However, just to test the facility I did a simple inventor
test for
our old "friend" Charles E. K. Mees (head of research at
Eastman Kodak
from 1912 to 1955, for those with less encyclopediac
knowledge than
Richard). The oldest patent I found on freepatentsonline.com
with him
listed as an inventor is United States Patent 1396770,
dating back to
1921. I also checked out the best European search site I
know of,
which is the semi-official site of the European patent
offices -
http://gb.espacenet.com/. It came back with Canadian patent
CA368787
from 1937.

I will admit that I am actually quite impressed, but I
appreciate that
it may not suffice for some of the historical research that
you do.

I have found that people working with patents share a trait
that I
have long come to appreciate in librarians - they never
query your
interest in an esoteric or outdated subject, but just do
their best to
help you - and their best can be quite impressive (but it
can also be
quite expensive).

My own experience with patent searches have been in relation
to more
modern patents, but I have on occassions had the experience
of working
with professionals in the patent field using the tools they
have at
their disposal. These tools have incredible power, but also
have a
significant cost - well beyond what amateur researchers can
afford.
--
- Helge Nareid
Nordmann i utlendighet, Aberdeen, Scotland
For e-mail, please refer to my website.
Website: http://www.nareid-web.me.uk/

I don't remember what I came up with searching for Mees
but searches for some other Kodak researchers like Richard
Henn, John Crabtree, etc, will get loads. Crabtree was head
of the chemical division and seems to have gotten his name
on a lot of patents from research done under his direction
but likely not by him personally. Names of Kodak optical
designers are familiar to you and any of them will come up
with numerous patents. Rudolf Kingslake does not seem to
have followed Crabtree's pattern of having his name on
patents from his department. Try George Aklin for example,
but there are others.
I search out of simple (or maybe not so simple)
curiousity. I am interested in the history of technology
generally and have found myself collecting patents for
photographic chemistry, optics, steam locomotives, several
areas of electronics, etc. Patents, of course, multiply even
as you watch so one can go on forever following up
citations: sometimes they are more interesting than the
patents.
A good, but expensive, resource for optical patents is a
computer program called Lensview, compiled by Brian
Caldwell. I was given it as a present and refer to it often.
It includes the Zeiss Index, which no doubt you are familiar
with.
This should really be personal e-mail but let it all
hang out as they said in my youth, its probably totally
boring to all but us anyway.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk(a)ix.netcom.com


From: Jean-David Beyer on
Richard Knoppow wrote:

Strange: your e-mailer seems to not understand the "-- " convention,
stripping everything after it as signature. But mine does, so when I tried
to reply, nothing was there.

> I am interested in the history of technology
> generally and have found myself collecting patents for
> photographic chemistry, optics, steam locomotives,

I am interested in them too. There is a very old patent, undoubtedly from
the 19th century, for a means of clearing the track of livestock. It
consisted of a pipe from the steam dome to the front of the locomotive where
there was a nozzle. There was a valve in there too. When the cow would not
get off the track, the engineer opened the valve and motivated the cow to
get off the track.

Another one was to prevent collisions on single track lines. It consisted of
an inclined plane from the track up over the locomotive, tracks along the
tops of all the cars, and a plane down at the other end of the train. On
encountering one another, one train would pass over the other. You can
imagine the difficulties with this.

Both patents were granted. In those days, I do not believe you had to reduce
the patented idea to practice. The first one might have worked, sometimes,
maybe. The second is preposterous.


--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 12:10:01 up 8 days, 16:58, 4 users, load average: 4.67, 4.24, 4.18
From: David Nebenzahl on
On 7/29/2008 9:19 AM Jean-David Beyer spake thus:

> Strange: your e-mailer seems to not understand the "-- " convention,
> stripping everything after it as signature. But mine does, so when I tried
> to reply, nothing was there.

Yes, I noticed the same problem; Richard's reply ended up as part of the
previous poster's sig, which of course is supposed to be stripped out of
the reply.

Richard: you may have ended up typing after their sig, in which case you
should simply more your cursor elsewhere before you compose your reply.

In any case, for those who missed it, here's Richard's reply:

> I don't remember what I came up with searching for Mees
> but searches for some other Kodak researchers like Richard
> Henn, John Crabtree, etc, will get loads. Crabtree was head
> of the chemical division and seems to have gotten his name
> on a lot of patents from research done under his direction
> but likely not by him personally. Names of Kodak optical
> designers are familiar to you and any of them will come up
> with numerous patents. Rudolf Kingslake does not seem to
> have followed Crabtree's pattern of having his name on
> patents from his department. Try George Aklin for example,
> but there are others.
> I search out of simple (or maybe not so simple)
> curiousity. I am interested in the history of technology
> generally and have found myself collecting patents for
> photographic chemistry, optics, steam locomotives, several
> areas of electronics, etc. Patents, of course, multiply even
> as you watch so one can go on forever following up
> citations: sometimes they are more interesting than the
> patents.
> A good, but expensive, resource for optical patents is a
> computer program called Lensview, compiled by Brian
> Caldwell. I was given it as a present and refer to it often.
> It includes the Zeiss Index, which no doubt you are familiar
> with.
> This should really be personal e-mail but let it all
> hang out as they said in my youth, its probably totally
> boring to all but us anyway.


--
"Wikipedia ... it reminds me ... of dogs barking idiotically through
endless nights. It is so bad that a sort of grandeur creeps into it.
It drags itself out of the dark abyss of pish, and crawls insanely up
the topmost pinnacle of posh. It is rumble and bumble. It is flap and
doodle. It is balder and dash."

- With apologies to H. L. Mencken
From: Lloyd Erlick Lloyd at on
On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:11:02 -0700, "Richard
Knoppow" <dickburk(a)ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> This should really be personal e-mail but let it all
>hang out as they said in my youth, its probably totally
>boring to all but us anyway.




July 31, 2008, from Lloyd Erlick,

It would be boring if you took it off-list.

I'm sure we all have various reasons for
hanging around on this particular discussion
forum. Part of mine is to give my mind a
break from the daily pressures (not that
they're so onerous, but wot th' 'ell ...).

I'm pleased you let the rest of us listen in
on your conversations.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email: portrait(a)heylloyd.com
________________________________
--